Full NV35 official feature list inside

Why does everyone assume that now that the NV35 is going to be 256bit, it's automagically going to be far superior than the R300/R350? I mean, from what I've read, the NV35 is going to have a 256bit bus (same as R300/R350), DDR-I (same as R300/R350), most likely the same speeds for roughly equivalent bandwidth, and ~400Mhz core clock.

So where are these estimates of "much faster" and whatnot coming from?
 
I agree with Natoma, I see nothing to suggest much advantage over the Nv30. If anything we will probably see lower clockspeeds with this board, Nvidia simply cannot afford a 12 layer board and the expensive board layout of the Nv30, the fact that Nvidia didnt produce more Nv30's despite them selling for $500 on eBay highlights this( reasonably high demand yet no production).

Unfortunately this puts Nvidia in the bad position of likely underwhelming expectations once again. Once again everyone expects an out of the park hit, even on more technologically astute boards like B3d.
 
If anything we will probably see lower clockspeeds with this board, Nvidia simply cannot afford a 12 layer board and the expensive board layout of the Nv30, the fact that Nvidia didnt produce more Nv30's despite them selling for $500 on eBay highlights this( reasonably high demand yet no production).

Hmm... I think they produced fewer chips more because of the fact that the NV35 is right around the corner and the NV30, due to its underwhelming performance, had to become the temporary filler product.

*edit -- grammar*
 
Nvidia simply cannot afford a 12 layer board and the expensive board layout of the Nv30

Really? how much did the NV30 board cost vs. a different board? How "expensive" was the layout compared to others? What, exactly, is an "expensive" layout?

(in other words, I don't think you know what you're talking about)

I don't know if the NV35 will be the bee's knees vis-a-vis the NV30, but at least anchor your arguments in reality.
 
duncan36 said:
If anything we will probably see lower clockspeeds with this board, Nvidia simply cannot afford a 12 layer board and the expensive board layout of the Nv30.

AFAIK, the board *is* 12 layers and more expensive than that of the NV30 (excl. mem costs). It doesn't really matter on a high-end product though: PCBs are relatively cheap. Plus the memory will be cheaper (although I'm guessing not that much cheaper if they use 400MHz DDR-I).

MuFu.
 
Hellbinder[CE said:
]Im telliong you. Its really sad. You know damn well where they got this info. Yet they take credit for it.

B3D and the powers that be should take action of soime kind. how can a website be so unabashedly unethical?

Uttar has been given credit. What's the problem?
 
When you say "Dynamic, conditional execution and flow control " do you know if they mean in the vertex shaders only? Or is this starting to creep into the Pixel shaders too?

Secondly - anyone have a hint when the 256 MB 9800 Pro is due to appear and/or at what CPU/Memory speeds?

Thanks!
 
Really? how much did the NV30 board cost vs. a different board? How "expensive" was the layout compared to others? What, exactly, is an "expensive" layout?

(in other words, I don't think you know what you're talking about)

I don't know if the NV35 will be the bee's knees vis-a-vis the NV30, but at least anchor your arguments in reality.

I'm a business major so I see the arguments quite clearly perhaps you're not seeing the simple economics of the situation and focusing on engineering minutae.

$500 on eBay= unsatisfied demand
Why would Nvidia not satisfy this demand? Production problems or high cost, those are the only logical choices.

Where these costs come from is up in the air, but its my personal belief they stem from the high production costs of each individual board even produced in decent volume, but really no one but insiders know certainly.
Certainly things like the use of more expensive DDRII and costly 12-layer board processes bear out my theory though.
 
duncan36 said:
I'm a business major so I see the arguments quite clearly perhaps you're not seeing the simple economics of the situation and focusing on engineering minutae.

Surely that should be "minutiae"?

MuFu.
 
Haven't you ever heard of irony, Mr. Businessman?

I removed the smilie to make it less obvious... I can put it back in if that would help. ;)

MuFu.
 
I'm an engineer, and I see your statements as false and based upon nothing but idle speculation and falacious assumtions. You're attributing costs to items with zero idea of what those items cost in reality, and what might make them more or less expensive.

The PCB fabrication costs are minimal (on the order of a couple of dollars). 8 layers vs. 12 layers is no more difference than a few dollars.

The cost of the components could be a big knob that is slightly affected by the layout, but if you look at a GF-FX and a R3xx, you'll find the number of passive components (capacitors, resistors, connectors, etc) to be pretty much on par with each other in quantity. Likely the difference in cost between the two designs based on passive components is also in the order of a few dollars.

Memory? Well yeah, that might be a big differentiator--BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAYOUT. Same thing with the GPU chip.

So, again, beyond you deciding that demand is not being met because eBay is selling them for $500 (which I'm not even concerned about), what, exactly, leads you to believe that "Nvidia simply cannot afford a 12 layer board and the expensive board layout of the Nv30". What lends credence that they cannot afford 12 layer boards, and that their board layout is expensive?
 
MuFu said:
That would be three units, though (165MBps x 3). That part of the spec seems incorrect to me. I am sure it just has dual integrated 165MHz transmitters + DVO outputs for external devices.
It's somewhat ambiguous alright. I thought NV30 already had 2 internal TMDS units + two DVO ports. Perhaps you're right & the 2nd internal unit has a dedicated link to an external TMDS device for HR output, negating the need to drive larger panels via 2 individual ports.
 
duncan36 said:
I'm a business major so I see the arguments quite clearly perhaps you're not seeing the simple economics of the situation and focusing on engineering minutae.

$500 on eBay= unsatisfied demand
Why would Nvidia not satisfy this demand? Production problems or high cost, those are the only logical choices.

Where these costs come from is up in the air, but its my personal belief they stem from the high production costs of each individual board even produced in decent volume, but really no one but insiders know certainly.
Certainly things like the use of more expensive DDRII and costly 12-layer board processes bear out my theory though.

OR perhaps because no board manufacturers want to dedicate the time and resources to producing mass quantities of a card that is soon to be replaced so Nvidia is being financially smart by not producing a lot of them?

I'm not getting where you are getting these narrow possibilities.
 
The 12 ops per clock cycle fits what has already been established for the NV30.

The best result of that would be if it can distribute calculation opportunities over 8 pixels.

The big question is the figure of "12 ops per clock cycle".

Assuming it really can apply colors for 8 pixels at a time (which I tend to believe), that's fine for calling it an 8x1 part, and getting a boost in odd textured performance (but not non-textured unless zixel TM Joe DeFuria performance is expanded again, which I don't expect at the moment).

However, I think there would still be significant limitationsif that number is real.

The performance boost possibility with that number that I see for fp is going up to 4 4 component fp32 ops per cycle. That's a very good thing for the ARB_fragment and DX 9 (non-FX12 :-?), but nVidia isn't touting ARB_fragment and DX 9 benchmark results (and still wouldn't do well against the R300), so maybe not.
More important to marketing, it could also be potentially good in allowing the peak full PS 1.3 performance (8*(non dependent tex op + register combiners 1 op)) to happen more often if the register combiners follow 8x1 (which seems to me to go together with 8x1 color writes).
The problem is that with only 4 fp ops allowed, the intermixed peak (4*(op+up to 2 ops)) would still be just as rare, and scheduling would effectively reduce it to nv30 behavior when trying to take advantage of the fp units for intermixing.
For this reason, I think these figures indicate 8x1 in fixed function, the same peak intermixed and fp performance as the nv30 so effectively or actually 4 pipeline, possibly significant improvement in fp32 (as fast as fp16), and possibly significant enhancement of PS 1.3 (non dependent texture reads, FX 12) speed.

What this would be is the NV35 acting like a 9800 of the same clock speeds only in fixed function pixel output (sans filtering, and with some distinctions in fixed function T&L performance) and PS 1.3. This could be a winner in UT2k3 and earlier games at Ultra clock speeds, but once vertex shading and pixel shading complexity increase (and they seem to be already for games), AFAICS it would act more like a NV30 (i.e., run into the same limits).
Again, if that 12 ops per cycle number is correct (it strikes me that because of that we are discussing the worst case).

I don't see a guarantee of high RAM clock speeds. It could have 32 GB/s bandwidth, but so could the 9800. The question seems simply whether nVidia will achieve more success (or spend more money on production) with the 256-bit bus to allow a higher bandwidth figure.
Nor do I see an inherent problem with DDR I...you pick the clock speed target and pick the cheapest effective technology to achieve it. DDRII or DDR I doesn't matter, the effect on performance does.

I think if the fp32, PS 1.3, and 8x1 function performance are true, it would be quite the improvement (not the improvement that I had theorized, though). I think the PS 1.3 and 8x1 fixed function are pretty easily achievable (but I don't know the internals of the FX12 architecture to be sure), and the major question is fp32 changes.

EDIT: reworded the PS 1.3/non dependent mention.
 
volt said:
Hellbinder[CE said:
]Im telliong you. Its really sad. You know damn well where they got this info. Yet they take credit for it.

B3D and the powers that be should take action of soime kind. how can a website be so unabashedly unethical?

Uttar has been given credit. What's the problem?

They hadn't given anyone credit when the article first went up. They've changed it since.

Is material published in a forum copyrighted? Or is it in the public domain because it is issued on a public forum?
 
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