Formula 1 - 2021 Season

[AlphaWolf]

Cool story, bro.
Meanwhile how do you explain "interpreting" rules in a way that you only let lapped cars between Hamilton and Max pass, but not those between Max and Sainz, and then get the safety car in before said lapped cars are anywhere near their places.

There's no way around it, it was gifted "win" by breaking rules (passing under safetycar even if it was just for a moment), pure favoritism (letting only cars between 1-2 pass, not between 2-3 or the rest) and ignoring rules (pulling safety car in too early and not letting all lapped pass) and far far worse for reputation than finishing behind safety car would have been.

Go ahead and script all the GPs and create all the "excitement" you want, but then stop calling it racing. Last GPs end had nothing do with racing.

The director wanted the race to end with a race, because that's what fans want to see. Red flags and safety car finishes are absolute disasters for viewer numbers. Reputation good or bad doesn't mean anything if no one is watching. They've spent a lot of effort building up TV numbers and ending the season behind a safety car would have undone a lot of it.

They absolutely need to work on the rules regarding safety cars and red flags and they need to minimize their impact as much as possible. The unlapping could certainly be performed more quickly if that's what they intend.

 

[Kaotik]

The director wanted the race to end with a race, because that's what fans want to see. Red flags and safety car finishes are absolute disasters for viewer numbers. Reputation good or bad doesn't mean anything if no one is watching. They've spent a lot of effort building up TV numbers and ending the season behind a safety car would have undone a lot of it.

They absolutely need to work on the rules regarding safety cars and red flags and they need to minimize their impact as much as possible. The unlapping could certainly be performed more quickly if that's what they intend.

This gets even better
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/masi-f1-safety-car-hamilton-25687383

Masi himself has been quoted talking how all lapped cars must be let pass and that may lead to longer safety cars but that's the way it is. Until suddenly it wasn't because of Max.

 

[Bludd]

problem is, however messy the end of that race was, its an even worse look if suddenly we have lawyers getting involved and lewis hamilton is declared winner of the world championship in a court of law despite the whole world seeing max verstappen being hailed as a world champion on live tv

it looks bad whenever it has happened for an individual race (for instance belgium 2008, where hamilton overtook räikkönen in an illegal manner and lost the win) but it looks like amateur hour deluxe if it happens over a world championship. granted the stakes are higher and rules should be followed but in my opinion it will be so unhealthy for the sport if it happens because of what has been shown on tv all over the world

instead, take the opportunity to fix the rules and procedures, make track limits a more iron-clad thing etc

 

[Jay]

The director wanted the race to end with a race, because that's what fans want to see. Red flags and safety car finishes are absolute disasters for viewer numbers. Reputation good or bad doesn't mean anything if no one is watching. They've spent a lot of effort building up TV numbers and ending the season behind a safety car would have undone a lot of it.

They absolutely need to work on the rules regarding safety cars and red flags and they need to minimize their impact as much as possible. The unlapping could certainly be performed more quickly if that's what they intend.

Red flag would've given everyone chance to change tyres and race from the grid.

Also could've raced but without unlapping some cars.

Both would give race to the line and be consistent.

Think people would prefer seeing that than the shambles it's ended up as.

 

[Pete]

The director wanted the race to end with a race, because that's what fans want to see. Red flags and safety car finishes are absolute disasters for viewer numbers. Reputation good or bad doesn't mean anything if no one is watching. They've spent a lot of effort building up TV numbers and ending the season behind a safety car would have undone a lot of it.

They absolutely need to work on the rules regarding safety cars and red flags and they need to minimize their impact as much as possible. The unlapping could certainly be performed more quickly if that's what they intend.

Masi’s “it’s called racing” quip to Wolff was total bullshit and should be grounds enough to fire him if it weren’t said in the heat of battle, as it were (and Toto’s call to Masi to not call a safety car should be grounds for a reprimand for attempting to influence any safety considerations). If Masi thinks totally screwing over Lewis’ 55 lap advantage for an unfair one-lap fight that he set up outside of historical precedent and apparently the rules themselves (“the race director has overriding authority” is a BS rule that no team should accept and will hopefully be clarified by any potential legal action) is racing, he’s a clown.

A red flag and a few laps of new soft tire racing would be fairer (still screwing Lewis’s race-long advantage, but that’s racing) and has precedence from Baku.

The race result was the best outcome for Liberty: free press from the batshit crazy ending, a perfect (so absurd it seems scripted) ending for Netflix, feeding the Max fanbase (good for ticket sales, and finally a different winner (Merc won the constructor’s and Max the driver’s title, so everyone wins…). It was still an “act of God” and “insanity,” as Horner and Max said. That’s (manufactured, not sheer) luck, not having the faster car in race trim and legitimately passing both Red Bulls on track in a one on two fight (WTF, Bottas). Max flat-spotted his mediums in Q2 and botched his start, probably would have lost even if he had stayed ahead of Lewis for some or all of the first stint, yet comes away with a race win in a slower car because Masi.

I’m not a Lewis fan (cripes, the Merc dominance made me root for Ferrari/Vettel for those two years), but he was robbed in this last race. Does that even out his and Max’s bad luck over the course of the year? I still think Silverstone was Max’s fault, so maybe this cancels out Bottas’ bowling ball impression. That still leaves a lot junk to tabulate.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Masi deserves credit for that comment because it is absolutely ridiculous that teams are constantly on the radio to him trying to make their case. Mercedes being by far the worst of the lot. On multiple occasions Toto was literally telling the race director what to do. And that is not even taken into account all the previous instances this season. At least apart from the last call RB keep it limited to their sporting director... But in any case I don't think teams should have such easy access.

Obviously Mercedes was hard done by the decision to go racing. But than again, I don't think it was the wrong decision either. Was it the right one? not entirely sure. But definitely better than a safety car finish. As for red flagging the race... exactly how many races ago was it that certain teams/people weren't happy being able to change tires under a red flag? Yeah... they all think the rules are unfair when it doesn't benefit them and think its completely fair when they do.

Remember when Hamilton was a lap down because of his own mistake and was able to unlap himself and get a good haul of points because of a safety car earlier in the season?

 

[Kaotik]

Obviously Mercedes was hard done by the decision to go racing. But than again, I don't think it was the wrong decision either. Was it the right one?

It wasn't racing, not when you unlap drivers between Hamilton and Max to let him attack with fresh tyres, but not those behind Max to give Sainz & co same chance to attack in the end.
It was literally feeding Hamilton to Max on a silver plate.

 

[Pete]

Masi deserves credit for that comment because it is absolutely ridiculous that teams are constantly on the radio to him trying to make their case.

F1 and/or the FIA want the chatter because they broadcast it during the race. I agree that we don’t need to hear it—we get enough complaining aimed at Masi between the drivers and their race engineers—but I’m guessing it was just as vocal before someone thought hearing it would spice up a race broadcast. I’d prefer experienced F1 TV directors (rather than a local crew for each race) and better (more static, wide-angle shots, please) camera angles than extra politicking.

But than again, I don't think it was the wrong decision either. Was it the right one? not entirely sure.

Leaving the lapped cars as they were, knowing they’d jump out of the way, would have been a better compromise between fair and flashy, IMO. No way Max wouldn’t get to Lewis by the end of the lap to attempt a pass. Fresh softs vs. like 40 lap old hards made it almost inevitable.

But definitely better than a safety car finish.

You can’t say we didn’t have some decent racing. Yeah, Lewis passing Max at the start turned it into a damp squib of a race, but that’s F1, too. I love a race restart as it can spice up a boring race, but at the last lap? Even Baku was contrived.

Remember when Hamilton was a lap down because of his own mistake and was able to unlap himself and get a good haul of points because of a safety car earlier in the season?

Was that Turkey in the rain? He almost beached himself, had to reverse because he was too close to a wall, but managed to get away and was saved because Bottas crashed the same lap (with Russell?). He’s had his share of good luck.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Red flag would've given everyone chance to change tyres and race from the grid.

Also could've raced but without unlapping some cars.

Both would give race to the line and be consistent.

Think people would prefer seeing that than the shambles it's ended up as.

Red flags are a last resort. Long stops in action are not conducive to selling the sport. I bet you lose 1/2 the viewers when you red flag a race. I know I would rather do anything than listen to Crofty fill for 30 minutes. Every televised sport is constantly looking for ways to speed up because drops in action lead to drops in viewers. You don't red flag because it would be more fair, you only do it if required.

I don't understand why unlapping is such a chore, I am certain they could do it more efficiently. I haven't seen an fia explanation of why Masi chose to unlap some and not others.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

It wasn't racing, not when you unlap drivers between Hamilton and Max to let him attack with fresh tyres, but not those behind Max to give Sainz & co same chance to attack in the end.
It was literally feeding Hamilton to Max on a silver plate.

The only race that mattered was between Ham and Ver. Did anyone watching really care about what was going on behind them?

I think it was a very hard decision and if you look at it with a little bit of objectivity, no matter what the race director would have decided, one of the two teams wouldn't have been happy because it happened at such a critical point. End of the race with only a few laps left, presumable no time to let everyone pass but, if true, a understand between the teams and the race director decided before the race that ending the race under a green flag was highly preferred.

If the race would have ended under a SC Mercedes would have been happy and RBR angry because why not go racing if there was an opportunity to do so. As it happens the decision was made to go racing (remember, this was apparently what all parties agreed was preferred) and as luck would have it the circumstances meant it was a major advantage for RBR. Same with letting some cars pass. You can argue it was unfair because not everybody got the advantage but if they wouldn't have done that you can also argue it wouldn't be fair because sometimes SC luck simply plays a big role.

My gut feeling says Mercedes was very hard done by. I think at least from a moral standpoint it is very hard to say anything different because it was pretty much a done deal. Though over the course of the season they also benefited from the rules a lot a couple of times while RBR hasn't been that lucky. So what is fairness over the course of a season?

 

[Kaotik]

The only race that mattered was between Ham and Ver. Did anyone watching really care about what was going on behind them?

You can't isolate two drivers and ignore the rest. Given the same chance Sainz might have passed Verstappen, or the driver behind him and so on.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Man, that finish was vintage Nascar! Wait this isn't Nascar? Are we sure? That finish to the race sure looked and felt like Nascar, just with different cars. Contrived endings and all. And looks like I'm not the only one that noticed or thought it.

COLUMN: Racing or entertainment? F1 teeters line at finale | Macon Telegraph

Nascar fans approve! Better to have a manufactured finish than to follow the rule book. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that F1 is becoming more like American racing since its parent company is now an American company.

Regards,
SB

 

[Jay]

Red flags are a last resort. Long stops in action are not conducive to selling the sport. I bet you lose 1/2 the viewers when you red flag a race. I know I would rather do anything than listen to Crofty fill for 30 minutes. Every televised sport is constantly looking for ways to speed up because drops in action lead to drops in viewers. You don't red flag because it would be more fair, you only do it if required.

I don't understand why unlapping is such a chore, I am certain they could do it more efficiently. I haven't seen an fia explanation of why Masi chose to unlap some and not others.

Red flag time is based on how long it takes to resolve the problem.
So probably wouldn't have taken much more time.

If he released all the cars time would've run out and finished behind safety car.
As it is even releasing those, he technically restarted to soon based on when safety car came in etc.

 

[zed]

Yes it does look like mercedes has a strong case, I was reading a dutch news site and even I read it there, though I expect they will just throw mesi under the bus as the scrapgoat

I dont understand why when theres a crash or something, just call a timeout/red flag (which they do) clean the track etc, and then start again from that position, the BS of doing 5 laps behind a safety car is just absurd

1. they can see where all the cars are when they called timeout/red flag, overhead camera/gps whatever
2. get the cars approx back to where they were (within a couple of meters)
3. countdown in their headsets from 3.2.1 an go, race (any that jump the gun, lose 5 secs or whatever)

sheesh its not rocketscience

 

[Rurouni]

Since the 1st race of this season, there is already inconsistency in interpreting and upholding the rules. Remember when some drivers (including Lewis) was abusing a corner (running out of track) for like the first 30 laps? On that corner, the track limit was still the white line, but some teams felt that they can abuse it because that corner was not being monitored. After being pointed out by RB that Lewis was abusing the corner, they told everyone to stop abusing it (not penalizing it), which is ridiculous because obviously drivers that doing it were doing it because it gave them advantage and the rule stated that there should be no lasting advantage when you ran out of the track.
Masi felt that he didn't change the rule mid race, but then why they didn't punish the drivers that abusing that corner then because obviously those drivers broke the rules? And the drivers did feel like the rules changed mid race because before they can abuse the corner but then they can't abuse it.
Honestly, I was super annoyed by what happening back then and even more annoyed after hearing the response from Masi that basically says he did nothing wrong.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Yes it does look like mercedes has a strong case, I was reading a dutch news site and even I read it there, though I expect they will just throw mesi under the bus as the scrapgoat

I dont understand why when theres a crash or something, just call a timeout/red flag (which they do) clean the track etc, and then start again from that position, the BS of doing 5 laps behind a safety car is just absurd

1. they can see where all the cars are when they called timeout/red flag, overhead camera/gps whatever
2. get the cars approx back to where they were (within a couple of meters)
3. countdown in their headsets from 3.2.1 an go, race (any that jump the gun, lose 5 secs or whatever)

sheesh its not rocketscience

They lost the initial appeal so they basically have no case. That is not to say Merc doesn't have a case by the letters of the rules but Verstappen has been crowned champion and for many reasons nobody is going to try and take that away.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes silently drop any appeal. Looking at it from the bigger picture they are their to promote their brand. They won 7 WDC's and 8 constructor championships. Coming across like a sore loser dragging out an appeal for weeks or months because they lost once in 8 years isn't exactly good PR. In all fairness Hamilton was pretty gracious even though he lost so they should probably play that card.

Red flagging the race and somehow getting cars back in the position they were is never going to work. First of all it would take a lot of time to call cars back into the pits and then have them go out again to where they more or less were. That might be okay if there is only one SC but you don't know there will be only one. It will also cause all sorts of other issues. How about cars that were close together and battling? How about cars having to start with cold tires? How about the different parts of the track the cars have to start from? Depending on where you are on the track at the restart having to start from a standstill can be a big (dis)advantage.

 

[Deleted member 2197]

The only race that mattered was between Ham and Ver. Did anyone watching really care about what was going on behind them?

That's not for Masi to decide as the top 3 finishers are on the podium. Who knows what might have happened if Sainz was in the proper restart position to challenge Ver? Make it more difficult for Ver to overtake Ham? That's what real racing is about and not callously deciding who should be competing for 1st and 2nd on the podium.

Edit: Definitely calls for some AI decision making ... leave the human sentiment and biases on the curbside.

 

[Jay]

Having a strong case, doesn't mean I think there's a chance that Lewis will get the title.
Even if they won appeal, they would find a way to leave the results as it is.
Be even more messy to clean up at this stage.
This is about getting it clear and known that merc and Lewis was pretty much robbed and not by max and RB

What about the other drivers and teams that were disadvantaged? Can't be resolved cleanly now. Only way they could do it is giving max 5sec penalty for weaving or something, and that's not on the cards.
All this wasn't max or teams fault, so can't really penalise them.

 

[Bludd]

andrew benson of bbc sport
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/59643988

Many felt the rules were not followed correctly at Yas Marina, and now a number of F1 insiders believe that changes need to be made at the FIA.

The subject is controversial, so senior figures have not been prepared to speak on the record in the immediate aftermath of the race.

But a number have told BBC Sport that at least half the F1 teams have lost confidence in race director Michael Masi, and that many of the drivers have concerns as well.

 

[Pete]

They lost the initial appeal so they basically have no case.

Losing an appeal to a set of stewards who can’t interpet their own rules correctly (see: the entire season) doesn’t settle anything. The stewarding has been as much of a clown show as Masi’s fondness for red flag restarts.

That is not to say Merc doesn't have a case by the letters of the rules but Verstappen has been crowned champion and for many reasons nobody is going to try and take that away.

I thought a sport operated by the letter of its laws. The “many reasons” not to change the result of the race are basically because it would make F1 and the FIA look bad.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes silently drop any appeal. Looking at it from the bigger picture they are their to promote their brand.

Me neither, though it may not be completely silent. They should get something out of this (better rules and possibly a better race director), though it may not be the driver’s title.

Coming across like a sore loser

Expecting the sport to follow its own rules is not being a sore loser. This isn’t a valid argument. Lewis was gracious in defeat, full credit to him. Remember Max walking off the podium last race after all the on-track stunts he pulled (“I tried everything”)? I know it’s easy to be gracious when you have X world titles, but this year has been RB and Max assassinating Lewis’ character and yet he remained gracious minutes after having the title stolen from him. He can come across as oblivious, etc., but he showed some class in a fucked up situation. His father may have helped put things in perspective.

And most of these guys are here to win, not to participate. I’m not sure goodwill does anything for them. I can appreciate Max chucking it up the inside of every corner because he wants to win, just as I don’t appreciate the stewards not imposing the rules on him when he does so. Gaming the refs by fouling so much that they get tired of calling them seems to get results, but it’s still a bit shit.

Red flagging the race and somehow getting cars back in the position they were is never going to work. First of all it would take a lot of time to call cars back into the pits and then have them go out again to where they more or less were. That might be okay if there is only one SC but you don't know there will be only one. It will also cause all sorts of other issues. How about cars that were close together and battling? How about cars having to start with cold tires? How about the different parts of the track the cars have to start from? Depending on where you are on the track at the restart having to start from a standstill can be a big (dis)advantage.

A restart from a red flag is like a race start. They start on the grid, not randomly on the track. Their tires are warm because they come out of blankets and there is a warm-up lap to the grid. And what about cars that were close and battling? Did Masi forget he’s directing the race for all the teams, not just the top two? There were many other battles down the field that were equally valid. Masi chose poorly and unsportingly for most drivers, not just Lewis.

Eh, it’s been a pretty great and very unbelievable season that Masi managed to mar at the last lap. Well done, him.