Formula 1 - 2019 Season

[Pete]

I agree with you, it was Max's corner. I don't think it's even a racing incident, for the reasons you laid out. But how was Max's move any different from Rosberg's? My issue is with the stewards' inconsistent ruling.

 

[cjo]

I agree with you, it was Max's corner. I don't think it's even a racing incident, for the reasons you laid out. But how was Max's move any different from Rosberg's? My issue is with the stewards' inconsistent ruling.

Basically, Max tried to make it round the corner, Rosberg didn't.

 

[Kaotik]

I love how nobody seems to remember the basic rules of racing.

Defend the inside of the corner and force your opponent to take the long way around.

Leclerc did exactly the opposite. He left the inside wide open. Verstappen took the opportunity and was alongside leclerc in the corner.

Now why would it purely be on Verstappen to give leclerc all the space he needs? Leclerc got passed because he left the gap, forcing him to drive into a gap that was always going to disappear. He should/could have backed out.

Because the rules clearly state he needs to give the space? Just lap before he drove like he should, leaving the space

Basically, Max tried to make it round the corner, Rosberg didn't.

Both got around the corner, neither did it as tight as they could have on their given lines. Both could have driven it leaving the space rules state you need to leave.

 

[Bludd]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/48821032

 

[Pete]

I need to start reading the rules, because I'm going on a lot of assumptions about when you have to leave space.

Basically, Max tried to make it round the corner, Rosberg didn't.

That's basically what the FIA race director said (not sure if he's involved with the stewarding):

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/41678/why-verstappen-was-not-punished-and-vettel-ricciardo-were/

"The big difference between the footage I've seen of the two is that Nico looked across on that occasion," Masi explained.

So better to give zero effs.... I don't buy it, but I'm not a racer.

Ah, this might be the actual "leave the space" regulation:

From Bludd's BBC link:

The issue here is in chapter four of appendix L of the FIA sporting code. It states: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited."

And: "It is not permitted to drive any car unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time."

This seems clear cut to me as a penalty for Max--unless, as I guess the stewards did, you don't consider a late apex with another car alongside a maneuver, only moving the wheel contrary to taking the corner (whether you check your mirrors or not?). I shouldn't be surprised F1 would parse something so finely. I view it as a no-look crowding. IIRC, LeClerc was technically side by side with him for the whole corner. But ultimately LeClerc could have just tried to cover the inside or to do the cut back and avoided trusting Verstappen in the same way competitors trust Kimi in the corners (as Brundle loves saying).

Heck, you could argue that the whole point of racing is to hinder other drivers from winning the race.

Should I mention Baku 2018 as "liable to hinder?" He was much more at fault there, so it's not comparable to this incident, but Max seems to get a pass more often than not. I don't blame him for trying everything, I'm just disappointed that he gets away with so much.

Max is a smart guy, tho. Impressive how he timed his laps to pass backmarkers just after a DRS detection zone, if he was doing that on the fly.

Edit: Pharma, I didn't read that far but I agree with both. At some point you have to concede the corner. I can say Max and Charles were side by side, but if Charles is on the outside, he's technically behind in the corner, position-wise (ignoring that his wider entry allows for faster exit). My issue is with consistency. I'm not sure the rules are enforced consistently, but they're worded so broadly that they can justify many interpretations (e.g., Nico's move was bad, Max's was fine).

 

[Deleted member 2197]

Also from Bludd's link is comments from two former drivers. Is the driver on the outside supposed to back off at a certain point?

Pedro de la Rosa, the former McLaren, Arrows, Jaguar and Sauber driver, said: "It was a superb race. Let's not forget though that the driver on the outside can and should back off at one point, but obviously with asphalt run offs no one does… hoping the guy inside gets penalised for forcing them off the track."

And Alexander Wurz, the Grand Prix Drivers' Association chairman, who is central to conversations on this topic with drivers and the FIA, added: "Investigation? Why are we investigating?"

 

[Kaotik]

Where are you supposed to "back off" when you're literally neck to neck? When Max hit Leclerc he was ahead by maybe 5 cm if at all, their front tires hit almost dead center of each other

 

[hoom]

McLaren have confirmed both current drivers for next year.
They've been performing well so not a huge surprise but I found an interesting line in this article about it https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...r-2020-line-up-now.DVK3exqQODoGVsiXGI2oc.html

With Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull all weighing up their options for 2020, with at least one seat free at each team, McLaren locking down their line-up will prevent any rivals sweeping in.

Who are leaving from Mercedes, Ferrari & Red Bull?

There had been speculation that Verstappen might look to move up to Ferrari or Mercedes & Gasly has hardly impressed but this is written as confirmed gaps in all 3 teams.

 

[AlphaWolf]

There has been talk about Ferrari parting with Vettel, but he's contracted through 2020 and I doubt they would just eat the 40 million.

 

[DJ12]

There is the rumour that he's going to retire, which if Leclerc keeps beating him, is likely to happen. After all that's why he left Red Bull, couldn't hack it that Ricciardo was challenging him after years of beating webber.

 

[cjo]

Who are leaving from Mercedes, Ferrari & Red Bull?

It looks like Bottas doesn't have a contract yet, and neither does Gasly. So technically the seat is "free" for now.

 

[Kaotik]

There has been talk about Ferrari parting with Vettel, but he's contracted through 2020 and I doubt they would just eat the 40 million.

I'm pretty sure most of those rumors suggest Vettel would quit after this season, not that Ferrari would want rid of him

 

[AlphaWolf]

Wishful thinking perhaps. He's certainly not giving great value atm.

 

[Pete]

Rumor from a guest on the Missed Apex podcast’s latest “Diaries of an F1 Boss” episode is that Ocon is getting a Merc seat next year, presumably Bottas’. Maybe it was lucky for Ocon that Ricciardo pipped him for the Renault seat.

And Gasly is clearly out at Red Bull. Given how ruthless they are with underperforming drivers, probably the only reasons he’s still there are that they have a) no good replacement and b) no real challenge for the #3 constructor. If they had a good option, I don’t see why they wouldn’t try to take #2 from Ferrari.

 

[hoom]

Is Bottas quitting? Surely they won't give him the boot?

I'd like to hope Kvyat will move on up to Red Bull again, there was a bit of talk about that earlier in the season with Gasly underperforming, it'd be nice to see what he can manage with a competitive car again but they seem wary of doing that, not clear he's proven himself yet this season.

 

[Pete]

Bottas is out of contract. Toto is managing Ocon, so that may trump his loyalty to Bottas (a good teammate and driver but one who is unable to really challenge Hamilton). Is Toto willing to upset the apple cart? It would be a calculated risk, knowing that Lewis managed to deal with Alonso.

While Kvyat might be more mature than the last time, would it be fair to throw him into the Red Bull midseason? Who would they replace him with at Toro Rosso? I’d love to see Ocon at RB, but that’s not gonna happen.

 

[hoom]

Toto is managing Ocon

Well that will most certainly help his chances

Yeah Kvyat probably has to finish this season as clean as possible with some better placings & maintaining a good lead over Albon, suspect if he moves up it'll be a late announcement.

 

[Kaotik]

Bottas is out of contract. Toto is managing Ocon, so that may trump his loyalty to Bottas (a good teammate and driver but one who is unable to really challenge Hamilton). Is Toto willing to upset the apple cart? It would be a calculated risk, knowing that Lewis managed to deal with Alonso.

While Kvyat might be more mature than the last time, would it be fair to throw him into the Red Bull midseason? Who would they replace him with at Toro Rosso? I’d love to see Ocon at RB, but that’s not gonna happen.

Then again, do they even want a driver who would be constantly challenging and even beating Hamilton which could end up in another Rosberg-Hamilton-debacle which definitely won't help the team spirit

 

[cjo]

Then again, do they even want a driver who would be constantly challenging and even beating Hamilton which could end up in another Rosberg-Hamilton-debacle which definitely won't help the team spirit

They have to balance that with knowing that, at some point, Hamilton will retire. They can't let competitor pick up all the top young drivers indefinitely.

 

[Kaotik]

They have to balance that with knowing that, at some point, Hamilton will retire. They can't let competitor pick up all the top young drivers indefinitely.

However they do have the possibility of placing their desired drivers to other Merc teams if they do choose 'till they need them