Formula 1 - 2009 Season

[Bludd]

That makes no sense. How big, or rather small, does a fine have to be to be less harsh than a one race ban, but still a meaningful penalty that the team can't shrug off and pay off out of petty cash?

A race ban punishes the fans and it diminishes the show, so the punishment is not just for the team. How big should the fine be? I have no idea. Maybe disallowing them to score points in the constructors' championship for the next race is a better penalty. Maybe that and a grid penalty. Maybe forcing them to run with only 5 gears is better. Maybe forcing them to run with tyre compounds harder than the other runners is better. Just don't ban them and punish the fans.

Remember when BAR Honda were banned for 2 races in 2005? They had run with underweight cars. This was done on purpose because they used fuel as ballast and thought they were clever. Do you really think the Renault guys thought their car could go faster with 3 wheels instead of 4? If so, the Renault guys are idiots and should just fold their team and pull out of the sport. A mistake was made, it was not done maliciously or with intent. The car was released in the heat of the moment and this has been done many times before, many times without any penalty. Webber could have crashed with Räikkönen when the team released him and that crash could have taken out for instance the Williams pit-lane crew. This was not deemed dangerous by the stewards.

 

[nutball]

Maybe disallowing them to score points in the constructors' championship for the next race is a better penalty.

Yes, that I'd go along with.

Maybe that and a grid penalty.

Punishes fans, diminishes spectacle. Plastic racing.

Maybe forcing them to run with only 5 gears is better.

Again, plastic racing. Which fans like plastic racing?

Maybe forcing them to run with tyre compounds harder than the other runners is better.

Again, more plastic solutions.

A mistake was made, it was not done maliciously or with intent. The car was released in the heat of the moment and this has been done many times before, many times without any penalty.

I'm not alledging malicious intent, nor trying to claim that the penalty is consistent with what's gone before. I'm saying that a one race ban is roughly consistent with what they deserve, and what others should have received for equivalent incidents had it not been for other political factors.

My point is that penalties have to be fairly simple, and also hurt to the right degree. Bringing the fans in and pleading because they'll get affected isn't really relevant.

 

[Tahir2]

Yeah I believe the fans have been punished.

Another big fine would have been better, talking millions of Euro's (in the single digits) as was the case with McLaren and the spygate affair.

FIA seems quite personal and vindictive at times, without fairness and transparency, without consistency and respect (to the fans).

Ah well.... I hope this era of ego's ends soon.

 

[nutball]

FIA seems quite personal and vindictive at times, without fairness and transparency, without consistency and respect (to the fans).

Personally, I think the FIA lacks fairness, transparency and consistency most of the time. Sometimes it's personal, sometimes it isn't. It's never impartial. The times its fair/transparent/consistent are almost always accidents.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Yeah I believe the fans have been punished.

Another big fine would have been better, talking millions of Euro's (in the single digits) as was the case with McLaren and the spygate affair.

FIA seems quite personal and vindictive at times, without fairness and transparency, without consistency and respect (to the fans).

Ah well.... I hope this era of ego's ends soon.

Did the McLaren spygate affair potentially have the ability to kill one or multiple people?

The fact that noone died due to the carelessness of the crew doesn't diminish the fact that someone quite easily could have.

If you can't get your crew to do something as simple as making sure all parts are attached as they should be then you deserve "at the very least" a one race ban.

Or would fans be better served if someone had died due to the carelessness?

Imagine if some form of carelessness caused a part to go shooting into the stands at over a hundred miles an hour? Would the fans be better off then?

Regards,
SB

 

[Tahir2]

I won't argue for and against. I can see your point about the risk caused to human life. It could have been the drivers life at stake or a fan or whatever, regardless it was negligence and should not have happened.

 

[Bludd]

Did the McLaren spygate affair potentially have the ability to kill one or multiple people?

The fact that noone died due to the carelessness of the crew doesn't diminish the fact that someone quite easily could have.

If you can't get your crew to do something as simple as making sure all parts are attached as they should be then you deserve "at the very least" a one race ban.

Or would fans be better served if someone had died due to the carelessness?

Imagine if some form of carelessness caused a part to go shooting into the stands at over a hundred miles an hour? Would the fans be better off then?

Regards,
SB

But it isn't in the interest of the teams to be careless. They want a car that works, not one on 3 wheels going along at 40 kph.

Banning them is a knee-jerk reaction to the Surtees and Massa accidents.

Remember when the front suspension of a Red Bull collapsed by just going over a kerb? That was not a mistake, that was not a component failing because of an error. It was a multi-part component that failed because of the design being under-dimensioned.

Remember when Kimi Räikkönen's front suspension ripped itself to shreds when he ran with a badly flat-spotted tyre for too long at the Nürburgring in 2005? Where was the black flag? Instead of pitting, Kimi almost wiped out Jenson Button when the suspension gave up.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I don't think this was a knee jerk reaction.

The end result was a bit of carelessness that had the potential to kill not only the driver of the car, but those around him.

Carelessness that should be punished in such a way that it can NOT be ignored.

Hopefully it results in the crews being much more diligent with performing their jobs.

A monetary fine is easy enough to blow off, even if it was a hundred million.

Regards,
SB

 

[DJ12]

Lets not forget Renault would've known the wheel wasn't on and likely to come flying off yet choose to let Alonso try and drive it back to the pits, which I believe is the main reason for the ban judging from various comments I've read from the likes of Brundle on the web.

 

[Kaotik]

I noticed on MTV3's site (Finnish F1 broadcaster) that Marc Gene is the official reserve driver for Ferrari, so it looks like it'll be Gene or Bourdais who will replace Massa for now.

Also, an update on Massas condition, he doesn't remember what happened to him at all, and one of the first things he asked was what happened to him

 

[V3]

I don't think it's harsh at all.

Someone didn't fit the wheel correctly (There was nothing wrong with it) would you think it was harsh if someone had died?

While it's unfortunate for Alonso as it wasn't his fault, the penalty is more than fair in my opinion. You will note how both Massa's wheels were still attached to his car after hitting a tire wall at a tremendous speed so there really is no excuse for it.

Someone dropped a clanger so punishment needs to be dealt so they won't make the same mistake again.

My point was they didn't do it on purpose. The same way Brawn didn't do theirs on purpose either. It was just a screw up that happened in typical racing.

If they are doing it this way, they should banned Brawn for one race too, maybe more because their screw up did caused the Massa accident. Red Bull should get the same treatment earlier this year too. FIA need to be consistent in their ruling. If not their ruling seems like a joke.

 

[DJ12]

Ask yourself why they didn't fit the wheel properly. To gain a few tenths?

They knew the wheel wasn't on properly and let the car go out anyway.

 

[Bludd]

Ask yourself why they didn't fit the wheel properly. To gain a few tenths?

They knew the wheel wasn't on properly and let the car go out anyway.

They did it because it was a mistake. If you really think they thought a wheel not fitted properly would be OK, you have no idea of how tight the tolerances in an F1 have to be.

They could have had a great result, but to suggest they didn't fit the wheel properly because it saved them a few tenths on the pit-stop is ludicrous. Losing a wheel makes the car go faster?

 

[MfA]

Just so we are clear here ... if a car goes out of pit and significant vibration is measured in one of the suspensions the car should always be pulled out of the race straight away?

Why not just put that in the rules then?

 

[Bludd]

Fernando was on his way back to the pit anyway. Instead of charging them with "knowingly releasing" the car, they could charge them with not parking the car immediately. Sebastian Vettel got into trouble for not pulling off after he crashed with Kubica in Australia and the team was fined.

 

[DJ12]

Come off it now. Renault would have known the wheel nut wasn't on properly therefore the tether was either.

And I'm not saying they deliberatly didn't put the wheel on properly, I'm saying that because they were trying to gain a few tenths they rushed it and botched it. Now this has happened many times before the cars have been held up in the pits until it's on properly. Not in this case though. Now maybe it's just that one mechanic at fault but they knew the wheel was coming off long before it actually did so they should've told Alonso to stop.

 

[MfA]

The wheel isn't tethered. It could simply be a mechanical failure in the safety pin ... is there any video of the pit stop?

 

[DJ12]

Yes they are maybe you call it something else (http://www.f1technical.net/articles/64), but when attached properly and the wheel/suspension comes off there is a strong piece of wire that holds the wheel to the body of the car.

 

[Bludd]

There is a pin that has to be pulled. The wheel and rim is not tethered, it is the brake housing or whatever it is that the wheel rim goes around that is tethered. The tether has to be fastened to the absolute centre of the complete wheel or else the entire thing will be unbalanced and shake itself to pieces.

 

[DJ12]

So yet again then, they didn't attach the wheel properly so the tether was useless which is what I said from the beginning. Either way the wheel was not attached through negligance, the car was not stop on track when the team knew the wheel was likely to come off so the ban is justified.

If someone had died this wouldn't even be up for debate.