Formula 1 - 2009 Season
- Thread starter Dave Baumann
- Start date
tongue_of_colicab
Veteran
Kovi is just one of those drivers needed to fill up the grid. The guy never had anything special and never will have either.
Hamilton, just like Button is only a fast driver in a fast car. If you really are fast you show speed even in a car that is slower. Just look at Alonso. Now he's a crybaby and you can possibly say alot of bad things about him but lack of effort isnt one of them. Last year his car wasnt fast, this year its not fast either but still he manages to put in results that are because of him being really fast and not just being a fast driver when the car is fast. Vettel did the same a few times at STR. Going faster than what is expected out of the car.
Button and hamilton show that they can only be fast when their car is fast. For years Button got nowhere and even though you cant blame him in full for his crappy car if you spend a couple of years at a team you'd think that if you know what you are doing you would be able to atleast move the team forward a bit because I dont believe that with all the money Honda had they really couldnt build anything than a car marginally faster than a Minardi. I now hear the same from Golden boy each race. The car is crap. Updates dont work. We are going nowhere etc. Maybe than you just have to put a little extra effort in!
Atleast thats something you can hand to the Ferrari drivers, they keep behind the team relative well.Or rather good might be better given the cockups the idiots on the Ferrari pitwall make. At the moment they are probably the ones allowed the most to complain about the team for good reasons but still they dont.
tongue_of_colicab
Veteran
Dont bother because I didnt. Kovi has always been a ''filler'' driver. Maybe that he was going to be closer but certainly not better. I've never been impressed by him.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Bleh you can say that about most world champions...
Mansell, Shumacher, Prost...going back and back.
It's rare that you find someone like an Ayerton Senna that can still consistently win with an inferior car. And even then it's usually only in races that play to their particular racing style.
The car has generally been the difference between a winner and loser in F1 assuming the driver had at least "some" capability and wasn't a complete idiot.
Regards,
SB
Mansell, Shumacher, Prost...going back and back.
It's rare that you find someone like an Ayerton Senna that can still consistently win with an inferior car. And even then it's usually only in races that play to their particular racing style.
The car has generally been the difference between a winner and loser in F1 assuming the driver had at least "some" capability and wasn't a complete idiot.
Regards,
SB
You're either fast, or you're not. There's only so much a driver can do, if you're driving at the limit of the car. I wouldn't say Alonso is getting better results out of his [slow] car, than Hamilton is getting out of his [slow] car at the moment. I would say they are pretty on par and season 2007 pretty clearly showed that when they were driving in identical cars. I would say Hamilton is as good as any driver on the grid, if not with more potential, but somewhat limited by some politics (fear for punishments), his somewhat aggressive driving style and his inexperience that resulted in some rookie mistakes he made in the past (both driving and political nature).
I will say that Kovalainen has had enough time to prove himself in a great car and he just hasn't delivered. His only win was when Massa's engine gave up the ghost in an agonizing fashion at the end of Hungary 2008. He should have won at Monza 2008, but Vettel kicked his ass.
What about their technical abilities with setting up a car and developing a car?
Hamilton have said repeatedly that he doesn't know how he manages to drive fast and Button had to copy Barrichello's set-up in Spain.
In 4 of the 6 races after Hungary 2007, Alonso beat Hamilton. Was it because he paid his mechanics to not share the set-up with Hamilton's side of the garage? I don't know how good Hamilton is on the technical side.
Neither would I, nor anyone else in this topic, let alone from the press or other spectactors. The sad things is, we just don't know. As for Alonso beating Hamilton in 4 out of 6 races after Hungary - I'd attribute a lot to lack of experience on Hamiltons side and rookie mistakes. No way did Alonso beat Hamilton simply due to being quicker in the car in every single one of those races. There are more factors to consider.
Michael Schumacher demonstrated for years how far a driver can influence the technical side of things, but I'm not sure how comparable Alonso or any other driver is today, nor if they'd need be. After all, Ferrari was essentially a one-driver team anyway.
There are very capable technicians in the team that are responsible for what they do best. The drivers can surely influence that in some way for the car to meet their driving style a bit better, but by how much? Raikonnen had his fair share of problems with the understeering car he had last year (besides motivation, though after winning world champion I'm not sure), Heidfeld had similar problems as well.
Michael Schumacher demonstrated for years how far a driver can influence the technical side of things, but I'm not sure how comparable Alonso or any other driver is today, nor if they'd need be. After all, Ferrari was essentially a one-driver team anyway.
There are very capable technicians in the team that are responsible for what they do best. The drivers can surely influence that in some way for the car to meet their driving style a bit better, but by how much? Raikonnen had his fair share of problems with the understeering car he had last year (besides motivation, though after winning world champion I'm not sure), Heidfeld had similar problems as well.
Indeed, but these people in the team need the proper feedback from a driver. If a driver can't relate how the car feels and explain the nuances of the experience, the people will have a hard time making it better.
And my argument was that one of those factors might be that Alonso is better at setting up the car than Hamilton. They both had 1 crash each in those 6 races, Alonso in Japan and Hamilton infamously in China.
Still, it is interesting to see Hamilton in a less-than-stellar car this year. Will he have the kind of resurgence Alonso had at the end of 2008? Who will develop their car the fastest and the best? Ferrari seems to have made a big step forward.
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The only way you can truly compare is to have one standard car and race them along. Sadly you can't, and you shouldn't compare together unless in the same team.
F1 is all about setup + strategy + reliability. Drivers, technicians and the team can influence every one bit of those in many aspects.
F1 is all about setup + strategy + reliability. Drivers, technicians and the team can influence every one bit of those in many aspects.
And I think you're looking too much into it and basing it misleading "facts" (= GP race positions). If we take your argument for granted, how do you explain the qualifying performance:
Turkish GP:
LH: 1:27.513 / 1:26.936 / 1:27.373
FA: 1:27.328 / 1:26.841 / 1:27.574
Italian GP:
LH: 1:21.956 / 1:21.746 / 1:22.034
FA: 1:21.718 / 1:21.356 / 1:21.997
Belgian GP:
LH: 1:46.437 / 1:45.132 / 1:46.406
FA: 1:46.058 / 1:45.442 / 1:46.091
Japanese GP:
LH: 1:25.489 / 1:24.753 / 1:25.368
FA: 1:25.379 / 1:24.806 / 1:25.438
Chinese GP:
LH: 1:35.798 / 1:35.898 / 1:35.908
FA: 1:35.809 / 1:35.845 / 1:36.576
Brazilian GP:
LH: 1:13.033 / 1:12.296 / 1:12.082
FA: 1:12.895 / 1:12.637 / 1:12.356
So, in other words - in the 6 races after Hungarian GP where you are proposing could be because Alonso paid to not share his setup with Hamilton - how do you explain the nearly head-to-head performance in qualifying?
If there was any truth to what you are proposing, I think we would see a drop off in performance in qualifying on Hamiltons side - yet there really isn't much in it. What it does show however, is that Hamilton managed to lose the championship to Raikkoenen despite very good qualifying. Having seen the races, I'd definately attribute that to lack of experience, immaturity and some unfortunate race events, perhaps even a bit unlucky. A cock up, for sure. Given his age and what the team expected from him (as well as the euphoric english press), somewhat justified.
In 2008, without any help of Alonsos setup techniques
, he managed to win the championship, after all.Not to take anything away from Alonso btw - I think he is a fantastic driver and am not proposing he is worse than Hamilton. I do think though that Hamilton is an extremely good driver though as well. Alonso does have more experience, that's a given - no argument there.
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And I think you're looking too much into it and basing it misleading "facts" (= GP race positions). If we take your argument for granted, how do you explain the qualifying performance:
Turkish GP:
LH: 1:27.513 / 1:26.936 / 1:27.373
FA: 1:27.328 / 1:26.841 / 1:27.574
Italian GP:
LH: 1:21.956 / 1:21.746 / 1:22.034
FA: 1:21.718 / 1:21.356 / 1:21.997
Belgian GP:
LH: 1:46.437 / 1:45.132 / 1:46.406
FA: 1:46.058 / 1:45.442 / 1:46.091
Japanese GP:
LH: 1:25.489 / 1:24.753 / 1:25.368
FA: 1:25.379 / 1:24.806 / 1:25.438
Chinese GP:
LH: 1:35.798 / 1:35.898 / 1:35.908
FA: 1:35.809 / 1:35.845 / 1:36.576
Brazilian GP:
LH: 1:13.033 / 1:12.296 / 1:12.082
FA: 1:12.895 / 1:12.637 / 1:12.356
So, in other words - in the 6 races after Hungarian GP where you are proposing could be because Alonso paid to not share his setup with Hamilton - how do you explain the nearly head-to-head performance in qualifying?
If there was any truth to what you are proposing, I think we would see a drop off in performance in qualifying on Hamiltons side - yet there really isn't much in it. What it does show however, is that Hamilton managed to lose the championship to Raikkoenen despite very good qualifying. Having seen the races, I'd definately attribute that to lack of experience, immaturity and some unfortunate race events, perhaps even a bit unlucky. A cock up, for sure. Given his age and what the team expected from him (as well as the euphoric english press), somewhat justified.
In 2008, without any help of Alonsos setup techniques
Not to take anything away from Alonso btw - I think he is a fantastic driver and am not proposing he is worse than Hamilton. I do think though that Hamilton is an extremely good driver though as well. Alonso does have more experience, that's a given - no argument there.
It's very close as you show, and they are equal in number of Q2 "wins". Thanks for digging up the data.
What we know is that while both thrive with strong team-mates, they both like to dominate their teammate. Alonso has it easy with Piquet, but Kovy is not a real threat to Hamilton.
Alonso and Hamilton lost the championship in 2007 because McLaren would not back one driver. Since Hamilton's team mate in 2008 didn't take points off him as Alonso did in 2007, Hamilton had an easier time.
We are comparing Hamilton and Alonso in 2007. Same car (except for brakes at some races? Alonso changed brakes IIRC.)
In 2008, without any help of Alonsos setup techniques
Ferrari helped him. If it wasn't for Engine failure in Hungary and Pit stop error in Singapore nobody would have thought Hamilton would have won at last gasp.
Kimi wouldn't have won in 2007 if not for Alonso and Hamilton taking points off each other and McLaren not pulling Hamilton in for a change of tyres in China.
Ah, but neither would Massa if he wasn't gifted the win at Spa and Kimi handing over his other win when Massa was way behind. What's your point?
Actually, it was Hamiltons championship to lose and he did, not for what Alonso did, but through his own mistakes. The championship was within Hamiltons reach, but he obviously didn't deal with the pressure right (i.e. he went for wins, rather than settle for strategic positions that would have given him enough points to win easily).
Anyway, we're moving off topic now. They're all great drivers, each with strengths, weaknesses. Then there's also the team factor, the car, luck, team strategy and other events that occur on the track.
I hope Red Bull's double diffuser gives them enough of a step forward to make Brawn's life harder.
I hope Ferrari, Renault and McLaren step forward too. I hope Williams can fight for wins, I hope Toyota wins at least one race this season.
I hope Ferrari, Renault and McLaren step forward too. I hope Williams can fight for wins, I hope Toyota wins at least one race this season.
