Final Fantasy 13 multi-disc interview

[L. Scofield]

I don't really think it's necessary for you to get sarcastic because you are that in love with your console. Just deal with it. It was a mistake to use DVD as your medium for a high definition console. I don't know why it is difficult for you to cope with that. Do you love your 360 that much? Get over it.

And that's why he's on my ignore list

 

[RobertR1]

Square just shot themselves in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Japan, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.

What this means is the japanese public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase FFXIII for either system, nor will they purchase any of Square's games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Square has alienated an entire market with this move.

Square, publicly apologize and cancel FFXIII for 360 or you can kiss your business goodbye.

 

[LunchBox]

What I gather is this...

This is new...vvvv

This is old...vvvv

New...vvvv

Old...vvvv

But it's being reported exactly opposite to keep downgrade FUD flowing right along. Personally I don't see any reason there'd have to be a downgrade.

Again this is only what I've gathered.

I think you've switched the old and new pics.

 

[TheWretched]

Pre-rendered scenes are often used to hide asset loading. They could try to use a 40mbps high resolution video in the PS3 version, but that would mean less blu-ray bandwidth available to load actual game assets which could cause other problems. Like what if you exit the cutscene early, will it have had enough time to load assets? So it's a balance. I believe Uncharted used pre-rendered scenes to hide loading, were those pre-renders 1920x1080 40mbps video, or something lower? I know GTA4 used higher res videos on the PS3 version when you watch tv in your apartment since there is no harm in doing that in that situation. But for video that hides loading, you probably don't want to max out that video stream.

Lower, for sure. I mean, look at Red Alert 3 for example, which does not (iirc) preload assets while showing videos, yet the videos actually look WORSE than on the 360. What is that supposed to accomplish, when it is the "Ultimate Edition"?

Ignoring the preloading for now, there are enough games that use the exact same encode for both versions, which makes the PS3 version not take advantage of something as easy to use as space on a disc. In Metal Gear Solid 4, Kojima did use quite a lot of bandwidth for the intro videos and some cutscenes which where not real time (but used the same engine settings etc., probably to not have loading screens within a cutscene).

But I agree with your earlier post, that it is a bit sad, that they didn't let you max out the 360 (same probably goes for maxing out the PS3 in other areas).

 

[Arwin]

Lower, for sure. I mean, look at Red Alert 3 for example, which does not (iirc) preload assets while showing videos, yet the videos actually look WORSE than on the 360. What is that supposed to accomplish, when it is the "Ultimate Edition"?

But that uses some horrible third party cheap built-in software video playback or something, right? Inherited from PC or something.

Ignoring the preloading for now, there are enough games that use the exact same encode for both versions, which makes the PS3 version not take advantage of something as easy to use as space on a disc.

Indeed.

But I agree with your earlier post, that it is a bit sad, that they didn't let you max out the 360 (same probably goes for maxing out the PS3 in other areas).

Agreed again.

But at the same time, it is definitely not necessary to use the full BD bandwidth capacity for Full HD video playback. Most of the time half of that should do nicely - it all depends on the length of your cutscene versus the amount of data that needs to be loaded too. And if someone decides to skip the video, then you can still use the full bandwidth.

 

[ultragpu]

I for one don't believe Square one bit about the game looking parity on either platforms while not compromising the quality. They contradict themselves as far as I'm concerned. I recall an interview awhile ago from the versus team which mentioned how Nomura has given his programmers the freedom of coding Vs13 with one console exclusivity on mind. This pretty much hinted how Square can take more advantages of the system by not going Multiplatform. Let's face it, FFXIII's visual and gameplay are compromised obviously by the weaker console" you choose" and the vast difference in storage medium.

 

[Arwin]

I for one don't believe Square one bit about the game looking parity on either platforms while not compromising the quality. They contradict themselves as far as I'm concerned. I recall an interview awhile ago from the versus team which mentioned how Nomura has given his programmers the freedom of coding Vs13 with one console exclusivity on mind. This pretty much hinted how Square can take more advantages of the system by not going Multiplatform. Let's face it, FFXIII's visual and gameplay are compromised obviously by the weaker console" you choose" and the vast difference in storage medium.

I think I've found a nicer way to phrase this:

A multi-platform release often prevents a game from using a console's unique strengths and features.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

It was a mistake to use DVD as your medium for a high definition console.

At the time it wasn't possible to include other drives besides DVD, so the other option would have been postponed launch, and that would have been far bigger mistake for MS than the current route they took. In general DVD has been enough for the X360 and so far the problems with the space have been rare and still manageable.

 

[nightshade]

I think I've found a nicer way to phrase this:

A multi-platform release often prevents a game from using a console's unique strengths and features.

And that is a well known fact, seems to me that everytime we appear to come back to exactly the same conclusion which we had in other discussions. :smile:

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Square just shot themselves in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Japan, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.

What this means is the japanese public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase FFXIII for either system, nor will they purchase any of Square's games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Square has alienated an entire market with this move.

Square, publicly apologize and cancel FFXIII for 360 or you can kiss your business goodbye.

You are being sarcastic. Right?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

You are being sarcastic. Right?

put this "I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert)" in Google and see what comes up.

 

[obonicus]

It's an idiotic GAF meme, started either by a joke poster pretending to meltdown after the FFXIII for 360 announcement, or by a Sony fanboy having a real meltdown. Funny, though, I didn't realize we were at GAF.

 

[Cornsnake]

I thought disc space puts a limit on the amount of unique textures you can have. After that you can just use the same ones very where. Isn't that how games like Final Fantasy get made?

If multi platform game development can't exploit the strengths of each console, isn't it easier for Square Enix to limit themselves to less space then a DVD offers for textures, rather then exceed that amount and start locking down areas?

 

[Arwin]

I thought disc space puts a limit on the amount of unique textures you can have. After that you can just use the same ones very where. Isn't that how games like Final Fantasy get made?

If multi platform game development can't exploit the strengths of each console, isn't it easier for Square Enix to limit themselves to less space then a DVD offers for textures, rather then exceed that amount and start locking down areas?

Only if they have a really good texture streaming system, which many games don't seem to bother with. I can't think of many games besides Uncharted that use this method effectively, though who knows there may be others. In most games, textures are more limited by the 512MB of RAM in the consoles. But there is no denying now that DVD size is limiting even for games that don't heavily rely on FMV - Halo ODST and Forza 3 for instance come on two discs, and the second disc is then partially installable on the HDD kind of like DLC that blends into the main game. It's a fairly elegant solution that we may see implemented more, but probably comes too late for a game like Final Fantasy to be shared with them (I wonder if/how this works on HDD-less Xboxen)

 

[Dr. Nick]

Someone please at least answer the following:
Which Final Fantasies included both English and Japanese voice tracks?




Lost Odyssey included both Japanese and English voice tracks among other languages. Can't remember off the top of my head but I think Blue Dragon does as well.
Star Ocean:TLH forces you to go back to previous disk.

With the ability to install the common sense thing to do is allow players to install all three DVDs and play off each disk as the time comes for and be able to go back to previous areas in the game once on the 3rd disk without having to switch. People without a hard drive would need to switch disk.(This is what SO:TLH should have done, also leads me to believe that game is headed for the PS3.)

Sure, I get the point But remember, '360 only' games are exceedingly rare, most are built as multi plat from the get-go, even exclusives. That makes things like the tesselator verboten.

It's part of the reason I am glad that Direct X 11 requires a Tesselator though it goes beyond the ability of what can be done in the 360 with ease. Hopefully we will see some some stuff before the gen ends.

The characters seemed pretty low poly from the PS3 demo released early this year and that was supposed to have been put together last year. If square was to be believed they didn't even start the 360 version until this year in their rush to get the Japanese version out(Their almost certainly won't be a Japanese Xbox 360 version.)

That said, when Digital Foundry does the comparison they should compare all 3 version of the game, Japanese PS3,Xbox and US PS3. This is the first multiplatform that without a doubt has the PS3 as the lead platform. This will be the most interesting comparison of the generation.

 

[Cornsnake]

Only if they have a really good texture streaming system, which many games don't seem to bother with. I can't think of many games besides Uncharted that use this method effectively, though who knows there may be others. In most games, textures are more limited by the 512MB of RAM in the consoles. But there is no denying now that DVD size is limiting even for games that don't heavily rely on FMV - Halo ODST and Forza 3 for instance come on two discs, and the second disc is then partially installable on the HDD kind of like DLC that blends into the main game. It's a fairly elegant solution that we may see implemented more, but probably comes too late for a game like Final Fantasy to be shared with them (I wonder if/how this works on HDD-less Xboxen)

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough, or I'm misunderstanding you. But I'm nor referring to what they can on screen at once, but rather the whole game world.

Like for example: Fallout 3 keeps using to exact same textures for every office building, so it doesn't matter as much for disc space if they make 1 building like that, or 10, or even 100.

Edit. An office building in fallout is much like a dungion in other RPG's. A separate area connected to the main world.

 

[Dr. Nick]

P.S Joker454, is it true that Memexport is integral in using the tesselator in the graphics pipleline on the 360?

It's a fairly elegant solution that we may see implemented more, but probably comes too late for a game like Final Fantasy to be shared with them (I wonder if/how this works on HDD-less Xboxen)

Why would it be too late? The game doesn't come out until "Spring" for the Xbox 360. While that could come out at the beginning of March it may not be released until June. I'm hoping they use a solution like the one I mention above but since this game has lead on the PS3 I don't think PS3 owners have anything to worry about.

There is supposed to be a premier party sometime today. The Japanese version might be released sooner than anyone expected. I doubt the 360 version got in the way of this. In fact releasing on the 360 may have made it possible for them to feel safe releasing the game so soon in Japan with it's currently 3 million console install base (4-5 million by the end of the year with both GT5 and FFXIII releases).

Edit: Game comes out 12.17.09 in Japan.

 

[sunscar]

I think you've switched the old and new pics.

And what I'm saying is from what I gather, I've placed them chronologically in the proper order. It's a FUD fest to say the game looks worse now than it did last year because the Xbox is weaker by some measure, and it's probably nonsense. Just feels like one more rellic from the Fanbot Wars.

Sure we can argue that there's been a downgrade between the two because we're keeping parity across plaforms, instead of leveraging the individual hardwares, but does anyone honestly think it'd manifest itself this severely? Does anybody think a downgrade would require what appears to be almost a full generational backstep?

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

you know i wonder what people are going to say when they start seeing actual game play of FF13 vs.

to the best of my knowledge it's still on PC for the moment.

 

[Dr. Nick]

Sure we can argue that there's been a downgrade between the two because we're keeping parity across plaforms, instead of leveraging the individual hardwares, but does anyone honestly think it'd manifest itself this severely? Does anybody think a downgrade would require what appears to be almost a full generational backstep?

I think that is being kind of harsh. Looking at the screens it also appears that they gave up the Action Man look of the characters for more cinematic effects and it looks better for it.

Edit: Gamestop is taking pre-orders for 6/21/10.