Final Fantasy 13 multi-disc interview
- Thread starter PSman
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I'll give you that. I doubt that's due to disk capacity though!
I have to agree that this is very disappointing.
Apart from the lighting, textures and polygon count are reduced. I doubt this is related to disk space, as well but my point was that there is indeed a downgrade compared to the original shots whatever the reasons this is
I was looking at this video a few days before & I must stress that that shoulder isnt really as low poly as it seems in that picture...its the angle that makes it look so. Try to view your shoulder in the mirror 45 degree angle from your back & you'll see this shoulder bone coming out of your back...Low Poly model you are, I assume ?
Regardless arent the old pictures taken from a CG target render ?
I was looking at this video a few days before & I must stress that that shoulder isnt really as low poly as it seems in that picture...its the angle that makes it look so. Try to view your shoulder in the mirror 45 degree angle from your back & you'll see this shoulder bone coming out of your back...Low Poly model you are, I assume ?
Regardless arent the old pictures taken from a CG target render ?
The particular shots are not. We were presented with real time and gameplay footage since the original unveiling.
The reduction in detail is not only visible on the shoulder.
I have actually ready that the chronological order in which those images were produced is reversed - the seemingly lesser of the two being older *not* newer as has been rampantly reported on the net of late. I.E. the prettier one is from a newer build, the "downgraded one" from a prior build.
It's not. The 360's tesselator could fix the low poly issues (heck even the gpu on it's own could) but it's rarely ever used, because they want parity across versions as well as a similar code/art base. Likewise on the hair, it will look grainy due to use of alpha to coverage because the non edram PS3 would choke with alpha blend on cutscenes. So even though the hair on the 360 could look much better with use of alpha blend it ultimately won't happen, again partly because of parity requirements plus it would require the hair be designed a bit different. It's easier to just design a single set of hair geometry that doesn't take sorting into account, and slap alpha to coverage on it. One version suffers because of it, but oh well.
It's just business as usual, parity and/or common code/assets has been affecting games for years now.
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
hmmmm, i still doubt that 360 has anything to do with effecting the poly count, MGS4 went through similar chances in it's development life cycle (and that's if the polygons were even effected in ff13, everything that a developer shows changes over time, the new pictures that we've all seen could be very old
)
anyways, the best looking RPG that 360 produced was mass effect, despite the technical flaws it had, it's polygons were 20 to 25k each a character...all on 1 DVD. and mass effect 2 (which has fixed all the glitches ME1 had) looks to take the poly count even higher. (they completely redesigned the krogen and armor for most of the characters)
http://www.gamersyde.com/pop_images_mass_effect_2-11361-1.html
http://www.gamersyde.com/pop_images_mass_effect_2-11326-1.html
360 has plenty of shadders to work with vertices (how else do you think it can run forza3 at 60 fps)
)anyways, the best looking RPG that 360 produced was mass effect, despite the technical flaws it had, it's polygons were 20 to 25k each a character...all on 1 DVD
. and mass effect 2 (which has fixed all the glitches ME1 had) looks to take the poly count even higher. (they completely redesigned the krogen and armor for most of the characters) http://www.gamersyde.com/pop_images_mass_effect_2-11361-1.html
http://www.gamersyde.com/pop_images_mass_effect_2-11326-1.html
360 has plenty of shadders to work with vertices (how else do you think it can run forza3 at 60 fps
)
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With max. of 8 cars on track , maybe ?(how else do you think it can run forza3 at 60 fps
Why don't you guys compare new shots with PS3's demo shots ?.. We have a PS3 demo , right ?
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
Still, each car weighs a lot though...more than three times of GT5's.
So in comparison it's either less but weighing more, VS more but weighing less.
The main factor is about dealing with polygons models that have a lot of polygons, 360 IS doing it in other games but in ff13's case (if it's true about the polygons being low) people seem to be blaming 360 for it for some reason
(in spite of MGS4 going through similar changes)In 360's stat sheet it says it has a 48 unified shader architecture, and can produce up to 500 million polygons.
Again, this is a hard sell because there are many 360 only games with only a couple using tessellation, and only 0 with hair.
(Ok the last one is a joke, but you get my point.)
What I gather is this...
This is new...vvvv
This is old...vvvv
New...vvvv
Old...vvvv
But it's being reported exactly opposite to keep downgrade FUD flowing right along. Personally I don't see any reason there'd have to be a downgrade.
Again this is only what I've gathered.
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I'm fairly certain that disc space had a lot to do with areas of PS1 era Final Fantasy titles being locked off.Yes, but quite often the storyline itself locks out certain areas, not a silly restriction like multiple discs.
If an area were to be, for example, destroyed then there would be nothing there to revisit and no reason to allow a player back to it.
As you said FF X had the whole game world on one disc. But if I remember correctly there were also area's locked to the player once you progressed past it and you were no longer allowed full access to area. Did that perhaps have something to do with being on multiple discs also?
Regards,
SB
Not saying that will be the case with FFXIII, but you're choice to immediately write it off as a possibility is a bit silly. DVD has it's limitations, I think it's high time we all accepted that.
hmmmm, i still doubt that 360 has anything to do with effecting the poly count, MGS4 went through similar chances in it's development life cycle (and that's if the polygons were even effected in ff13, everything that a developer shows changes over time, the new pictures that we've all seen could be very old
anyways, the best looking RPG that 360 produced was mass effect, despite the technical flaws it had, it's polygons were 20 to 25k each a character...all on 1 DVD
http://www.gamersyde.com/pop_images_mass_effect_2-11361-1.html
http://www.gamersyde.com/pop_images_mass_effect_2-11326-1.html
360 has plenty of shadders to work with vertices (how else do you think it can run forza3 at 60 fps
...wat?
Sure, I get the point
But remember, '360 only' games are exceedingly rare, most are built as multi plat from the get-go, even exclusives. That makes things like the tesselator verboten. Heck, I once asked for permission just to use the 360's extra memory to add significantly more texture variety to it's version of the crowd on a sports game, and that was veto'd in the name of parity. Some other 360 games, believe it or not, go as far as using reduced resolution buffers for transparencies to keep the graphics pipe similar to the other platforms, even though there is zero technical reason to do that degradation for many of them. Quite sad, but that's business. So if the 360 version of FF shipped with low poly's or alpha to coverage hair, then it wouldn't be a huge surprise.I remember some huge areas (towns in another cases) that where destroyed per disk. (not accessible later in other discs)
I am not sure if this was only story related or not.
If it was also technical reasons behind this, then we know for sure what will happen to some townspeople in FFXIII...
About the shots, kotaku is saying that the old (better) ones was released by SquareEnix in August 2008. (i don't remember the real time demo clip to be this good but anyway...)
Maybe my mind is playing tricks to me but if you look risou2.jpg & rekka2.jpg and then risou3.jpg & rekka03.jpg, it seems to me that something is off with the diiferent LOD of the old photos.
if you check risou3.jpg the texture in the hairs is very high res and the texture for the backgrounds are very lower res (as if they were trying with prerender staff to emulate the look and feel of a real time renderer, i mean the feeling i get from the difference in LOD is fishy...
Also if you check risou2.jpg, again the same feeling (i get a feeling like prerender staff+noise effect for risou2.jpg)
Also the spark in the sword is fishy (risou1.jpg), too precise rendering for a realtime XBOX360/PS3 game (did we get that far for realtime rendering in the XBOX360/PS3?)
Also the old ones have a very clean look in their rendering for the characters in relation with the background rendering, while the new ones they have a uniform blurry feel rendering method for the characters and the backgrounds.
Anyway maybe it is just my imagination, even if this is realtime,
like other members said, the sure thing is that the lighting, textures and polygon counts are reduced in the new photos.
I am not sure if this was only story related or not.
If it was also technical reasons behind this, then we know for sure what will happen to some townspeople in FFXIII...
About the shots, kotaku is saying that the old (better) ones was released by SquareEnix in August 2008. (i don't remember the real time demo clip to be this good but anyway...)
Maybe my mind is playing tricks to me but if you look risou2.jpg & rekka2.jpg and then risou3.jpg & rekka03.jpg, it seems to me that something is off with the diiferent LOD of the old photos.
if you check risou3.jpg the texture in the hairs is very high res and the texture for the backgrounds are very lower res (as if they were trying with prerender staff to emulate the look and feel of a real time renderer, i mean the feeling i get from the difference in LOD is fishy...
Also if you check risou2.jpg, again the same feeling (i get a feeling like prerender staff+noise effect for risou2.jpg)
Also the spark in the sword is fishy (risou1.jpg), too precise rendering for a realtime XBOX360/PS3 game (did we get that far for realtime rendering in the XBOX360/PS3?)
Also the old ones have a very clean look in their rendering for the characters in relation with the background rendering, while the new ones they have a uniform blurry feel rendering method for the characters and the backgrounds.
Anyway maybe it is just my imagination, even if this is realtime,
like other members said, the sure thing is that the lighting, textures and polygon counts are reduced in the new photos.
MazingerDUDE
Regular
Sure, I get the point
I think FF13's hair issue is related to its logluv HDR. 360 may use FP10 with 2 bit alpha, but with less precision in dynamic range.
And a lot of PS3 games do suffer similar 'forced parity', for example the games these days, still use a lot of pre-rendered scenes. And it's almost always the case that PS3 version gets the same piss poor quality video as 360 while there're plenty of disk space available. The most recent example be the new Batman game
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Which completely ignores the fact that FF-X also locked out portions of the game after visiting them, despite the fact that it was only on one disc.
Or was that somehow also due to some mysterious multi-disc version I've never heard of.
Regards,
SB
And a lot of PS3 games do suffer similar 'forced parity', for example the games these days, still use a lot of pre-rendered scenes. And it's almost always the case that PS3 version gets the same piss poor quality video as 360 while there're plenty of disk space available. The most recent example be the new Batman game
Pre-rendered scenes are often used to hide asset loading. They could try to use a 40mbps high resolution video in the PS3 version, but that would mean less blu-ray bandwidth available to load actual game assets which could cause other problems. Like what if you exit the cutscene early, will it have had enough time to load assets? So it's a balance. I believe Uncharted used pre-rendered scenes to hide loading, were those pre-renders 1920x1080 40mbps video, or something lower? I know GTA4 used higher res videos on the PS3 version when you watch tv in your apartment since there is no harm in doing that in that situation. But for video that hides loading, you probably don't want to max out that video stream.
