Everyone wants Xbox360 Premium, No one wants Xbox360 Core System

[Titanio]

It's big certainly, but it isn't that varied.

I've been trying to find a way to ask about this without coming off as putting Oblivion down. I'll openly say right now that it remains unopened on my desk because of college commitments, but I have READ that many of the dungeons recycle the same assets over and over again, for example?

Geographical expanse and size or data requirement ought not to be confused. To take it to an extreme, one could create an infinite plane of terrain with very little data requirement. Conversely, you could create a single city block that might require massive amounts of data.

 

[Ben-Nice]

Did this really become a Do we need HD-DVD and BR to make games thread? I think there have already been many threads regarding this.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I've been trying to find a way to ask about this without coming off as putting Oblivion down. I'll openly say right now that it remains unopened on my desk because of college commitments, but I have READ that many of the dungeons recycle the same assets over and over again, for example?

Certainly you can find lot's of recycling in the dungeons etc, but considering the scale of the game, it would be madness to think otherwise, There are probably hundreds of dungeons in the game, does somebody expect all of them to have different assets, that won't happen anytime soon. I must say that it doesn't even bother me at all. There still is so much content in this game that I'm personally not too worried about DVD capasity, ofcourse knowing that they can use 2 DVD's if needed.

I think they said on documentary on the second DVD (collectors edition) that audio takes 50% of the total.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Your arguments are ridiculous, if MS's standard is DVD disc, and BethSoft wants to do HD-DVD they'll get told NO.

That sounds like a dream scenario for Sony.

And why would BethSoft "not prefer" to release a DVD version and serve the majority of the userbase?

If there are technical limitations.

As fas as comparing DVD and CD you're talking about an order of maginitude difference between the two, making something fit on 8GB is feasible, making something fit on 650mb is ridiculous.

They can only reuse identical assets so much. The only way that would be able to open up all of the territories is by increasing the size of the current game ~3x(being fairly conservative, if they wanted to have reasonably intricate varriances then it would be 5x-6x). If they were going to make the title fit onto a DVD9 with that level of detail they would need to cut back assets enormously. That is what my CD comment comes from- why stop cutting it back at one generation? Why not push it to a couple generations worth?

The audio in oblivion is hours upon hours

Do you own an iPod? Do you have any idea how many hours you can fit of speech samples in a GB? As I said, I only have about 180 hours into Oblivion right now, but it isn't anything remotely approaching a GB with everything I have heard, not even close.

you're arguments do not address any of the cons associated with releasing HD-DVD games, nor do you explain WHY MS would do this, what do they have to gain by fracturing their userbase?

The bolded part is done. Why don't you ask them why they did it? That was out of the way long before I posted anything in this thread. As far as the cons are concerned they are the exact same ones they are facing now with the HDD- how is it any different? They have made a choice that fractionalizing their userbase isn't a major concern for them from the outset- assuming that they would change their mind seems a bit illogical. If it comes down to losing a major title to Sony or release it on HD-DVD then it really seems like a no brainer. I will certainly own them all, so whatever platform it hits for is fine by me. But for those who are only intending to have a 360 wouldn't you rather MS release it on HD-DVD then not at all? Of course if it was truly viable to do it on a single DVD then that would be another issue altogether, but if that doesn't fit what the developer is trying to do why not utilize the best technology available to you? We already know there is a game that is pushing towards taking up 3 DVD9s heading to the 360- I don't know about you but I'm not too fond of shuffling disks around when I'm trying to play and I don't know too many people who are either.

Given that MS already has fractionalized their userbase this would simply be a question of how much.

why would they essentially DOUBLE the price of Halo 3, just to get an HD-DVD drive installed?

If they wanted to push it hard then they would do it. As I stated previously, I'm not saying this would happen- but if it did you know that the installed base on HD-DVD would be enormous.

If MS wants to make money, which is your premise, seems to me they would demand that at the very least all games released for the console have both a DVD and HD-DVD version so that can sell to 100% of their userbase and collect the maximum amunt of royalties.

MS does not rule the world. With that in mind- if a dev says HD-DVD or we are going BluRay MS would be foolish to not allow it. They would be depositing their money into Sony's accounts with such a move.

 

[Titanio]

Certainly you can find lot's of recycling in the dungeons etc, but considering the scale of the game, it would be madness to think otherwise, There are probably hundreds of dungeons in the game, does somebody expect all of them to have different assets

I'm not saying the reason for this was the DVD, of course there are other issues at play like production etc. But I'm just saying that Oblivion gets used over and over as some sort of "silver-bullet" argument regarding the adequacy of DVD capacity for next-gen games, but that argument seems to confuse game-world size with data requirement, which is flawed. I think it's quite easy to imagine a game requiring a larger amount of data under different circumstances.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I'm not saying the reason for this was the DVD, of course there are other issues at play like production etc. But I'm just saying that Oblivion gets used over and over as some sort of "silver-bullet" argument regarding the adequacy of DVD capacity for next-gen games, but that argument seems to confuse game-world size with data requirement, which is flawed. I think it's quite easy to imagine a game requiring a larger amount of data under different circumstances.

I can understand your points, it's clear that some J-RPG game with lot's of FMV will be completely different story, however I wouldn't say that Oblivion only has large game-world, it has amazing amount of well written missions etc. the game certainly does not feel like a big empty world to me, I have about 100h on it and personally I must say that if some other game tops Oblivion this year I'm in a shock, I wouldn't say that if all it had was a large game-world, but ofcourse I must admit that HD FMV will fill up that disc pretty quickly...

 

[Titanio]

I'm not even talking about FMV, just in-game assets. Like I said, data requirement isn't necessarily a function of game-world size, or solely a function of that. But I accept your point that 'genuine' usage of more disc capacity beyond improving data quality (like better audio bit-rates etc., hd video etc.) also presents challenges in terms of production, but it's not like we've hit a ceiling in terms of asset production for games, or the capacity to do that (though obviously that will vary from game to game, budget to budget, but the general trend will be upward).

 

[scooby_dooby]

The bolded part is done. Why don't you ask them why they did it?

No it's not. The HDD is required in very few, very selective cases, MMO's mainly, and "possibly" an exception with Football Manager 2006 yet...that game is not released.

What you are proposing is completely different. You're proposing a huge split, when 100% of install base does not posess the hardward, You are proposing that major, blockbuster releases will get released only on HD-DVD.

When MS releases a 1st party title, or ANY major non-MMO release, and it requires a HDD, then let me know, then you'll have a precedent for MS actually splitting the userbase, and we can resume this argument then.

Right now you have nothing to go on. The fact that MS has allowed a few select games to require a HDD does not indicate they will release HD-DVD only games..that's a pretty huge stretch of the imagination.

 

[thenefariousone]

Assets aren't free though. In the scenario you're envisioning, the costs alone of generating that amount of unique assets is prohibitive.

Coming soon, the 100 Million Dollar Video Game!

They can only reuse identical assets so much. The only way that would be able to open up all of the territories is by increasing the size of the current game ~3x(being fairly conservative, if they wanted to have reasonably intricate varriances then it would be 5x-6x). If they were going to make the title fit onto a DVD9 with that level of detail they would need to cut back assets enormously. That is what my CD comment comes from- why stop cutting it back at one generation? Why not push it to a couple generations worth?

 

[Platon]

Assets aren't free though. In the scenario you're envisioning, the costs alone of generating that amount of unique assets is prohibitive.

Coming soon, the 100 Million Dollar Video Game!

I agree. The reuse of assets in Oblivion has little to do with disc space as they hardly fill a DVD and more to do with production costs. Imagine how much more it would cost if they were going for unique asstes per dungeon or something...

 

[kyleb]

Assets aren't free though. In the scenario you're envisioning, the costs alone of generating that amount of unique assets is prohibitive.

Coming soon, the 100 Million Dollar Video Game!

Give it a few years and I'm sure plenty of PS3 developers will do it for much less.

 

[BenSkywalker]

No it's not. The HDD is required in very few, very selective cases, MMO's mainly, and "possibly" an exception with Football Manager 2006 yet...that game is not released.

I am a bit dumbfounded by your comments here- they haven't split their userbase yet because none of the titles they are releasing look like they will be big hits to you...? Is that your logic?

What you are proposing is completely different. You're proposing a huge split, when 100% of install base does not posess the hardward, You are proposing that major, blockbuster releases will get released only on HD-DVD.

You mean something like MS's first ever Square/Enix game? That doesn't count as a blockbuster?

Right now you have nothing to go on. The fact that MS has allowed a few select games to require a HDD does not indicate they will release HD-DVD only games..that's a pretty huge stretch of the imagination.

It's a huge stretch to think MS is going to do something they already have done, and it's not a huge stretch to say that MS will sacrifice a top tier title to not do what they have already done.... OK.

Assets aren't free though. In the scenario you're envisioning, the costs alone of generating that amount of unique assets is prohibitive.

Coming soon, the 100 Million Dollar Video Game!

It is coming, likely this generation. Oblivion has already generated roughly $100Million in revenue- GTA3 generated several times more then that. The first $20Million game came out ten years ago now(Mario64). I could see the next GTA or one of this generation's FF or DQ games closing in on that number. I don't want that element to confuse the fact that the memory size of the assets is not directly linear with the cost of production.

Oblivion's textures as an example are largely photographs of real life objects. Obviously you still need to have them modified, but it isn't as if you are dealing with GBs worth of entirely manually created texture maps. Hiring a photographer for a year to fill up 9GBs worth of useable texture data for a game won't cost you more then ~$200K or so, maybe ~$500K if you modify them relatively extensively and need a couple of graphic artists to handle all of the changes. The dungeon creation in Oblivion isn't terribly complex either, building the tool sets to get it done was, but now it is a relatively speaking simple process, although your art assets are limited. Doom3 is larger then Oblivion and it is only a very, very small fraction of the size of a game that Oblivion is. A title with the level of complexity of D3 in its assets and one quarter the size of Oblivion would require several multi layer BluRay disks.

 

[Serenity Painted Death]

It's hilarious Oblivion is by far and away the biggest game ever even imagined and it only uses up 1\2 of a DVD, so why do we need BR\HDDVD for gaming again?

You're a joke character, right?

Oblivion is pretty big, but there are several games larger.

Notobably Morrowind and Daggerfall...

Not to mention any MMO in existence

FFXII likely has more area to explore than Oblivion (and it isn't all 90% empty). Massively larger cities/more NPCs.

There is a [moderated]load more to do in Star Ocean 3 (for all the hate it gets) than in Oblivion. Amassing all 300 battle trophies is an epic feat beyond the scope of anything Oblivion has to offer (or pretty much any other recent game).

My main character is at 60 hours and has done 130/185 quests... it took me ~500 hours to fully max out in FFX (that means my blitzball team was a freaking level 99)]

As for disc space... most if it won't be needed, but who is to say what developers might do given that they DO have that space to work with?


Oh, and Oblivion is an awesome game, but some of the hyperbole is gettint truly hilarious.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's hilarious Oblivion is by far and away the biggest game ever even imagined and it only uses up 1\2 of a DVD, so why do we need BR\HDDVD for gaming again?

Ahhh, conclusive evidence. Except by that reasoning no game will ever have occupied more than 5 GB to date, for no game is larger, which isn't true. It's not size of the world that matters, but size and number of the assets.

And you might want to tone down the hyperbole unless you want to appear as a console exec talking up their hardware. I can imagine bigger games than Oblivion...

 

[DuckThor Evil]

It's a huge stretch to think MS is going to do something they already have done, and it's not a huge stretch to say that MS will sacrifice a top tier title to not do what they have already done.... OK.

Umm you keep talking about this "sacrifice" as if it's a sure thing when in fact it's far from it, why would some developer insist that their game must be released on HDDVD instead of 2 or 3 DVD's. Especially considering that the installed base for the DVD-market would be much bigger, generating much better sales. It's not too hard to split a game on multiple discs.

 

[Platon]

I am a bit dumbfounded by your comments here- they haven't split their userbase yet because none of the titles they are releasing look like they will be big hits to you...? Is that your logic?

MMOs do attract a very specific and selected gamer segment, which most probably already own a premium or HDD. I can't imagine serious MMO players ever concidering playing an MMO game without a HDD.

You mean something like MS's first ever Square/Enix game? That doesn't count as a blockbuster?

Halo style? Not even close.

It's a huge stretch to think MS is going to do something they already have done, and it's not a huge stretch to say that MS will sacrifice a top tier title to not do what they have already done.... OK.

Once again you are comparing an MMO with the likes of Halo, that is a no no, so they have done nothing of the kind you are suggesting. They will not sacrifice Halo and the future of their xbox bussines to promote HDDVD, which they have nothing to win from.

Oblivion's textures as an example are largely photographs of real life objects. Obviously you still need to have them modified, but it isn't as if you are dealing with GBs worth of entirely manually created texture maps. Hiring a photographer for a year to fill up 9GBs worth of useable texture data for a game won't cost you more then ~$200K or so, maybe ~$500K if you modify them relatively extensively and need a couple of graphic artists to handle all of the changes. The dungeon creation in Oblivion isn't terribly complex either, building the tool sets to get it done was, but now it is a relatively speaking simple process, although your art assets are limited. Doom3 is larger then Oblivion and it is only a very, very small fraction of the size of a game that Oblivion is. A title with the level of complexity of D3 in its assets and one quarter the size of Oblivion would require several multi layer BluRay disks.

Taking fotos might ease the way of making textures but it is still a huge job to make them. You will most likely want to modify them, then ofcourse place them in the gamming world, align them, apply parallax maps, normal maps and what not. Just because artists may rely more on pics now for making textures, I think due to all the new techniques available now that you can handle/modify textures the work has increased rather than decreased compared to older titles...

 

[predicate]

Oblivion has a ton of recycled content.

Also, do lots of the textures appear to have squares on them (like JPEG artefacts, sort of) when close up because of the texture compression to fit them on the disc or just because?

 

[BenSkywalker]

Umm you keep talking about this "sacrifice" as if it's a sure thing when in fact it's far from it, why would some developer insist that their game must be released on HDDVD instead of 2 or 3 DVD's. Especially considering that the installed base for the DVD-market would be much bigger, generating much better sales. It's not too hard to split a game on multiple discs.

Why not take the next step? Why not say why bother with DVD drives at all? Let's just put the title onto a couple dozen CDs? Why wouldn't developers do that?

How many hundreds of discussion threads would you like me to link showing you how much people "like" multi disk games? Developers know that gamers, by a staggering margin- want their games on a single disk. That is how it is. For Japanese developers they also want to use large quantities of video, and they tend to want the highest quality video they can get(particularly Squenix). In realistic terms, that is the most likely issue requiring a bundle of DVDs over a single next gen disk.

Halo style? Not even close.

True, Halo moved a massive 5.5 Million units while WoW has only managed a paltry 6 million. WoW has changed the rules concerning MMORPGS. FFXI certainly hasn't proven that popular, but I find it highly unlikely that Squenix is ignoring what is going on there.

Taking fotos might ease the way of making textures but it is still a huge job to make them. You will most likely want to modify them, then ofcourse place them in the gamming world, align them, apply parallax maps, normal maps and what not. Just because artists may rely more on pics now for making textures, I think due to all the new techniques available now that you can handle/modify textures the work has increased rather than decreased compared to older titles...

The budget I mentioned gives you five man years to do that in. It's not like I'm asking to cut a lot of corners with the numbers I was talking about.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Why not take the next step? Why not say why bother with DVD drives at all? Let's just put the title onto a couple dozen CDs? Why wouldn't developers do that?

How many hundreds of discussion threads would you like me to link showing you how much people "like" multi disk games? Developers know that gamers, by a staggering margin- want their games on a single disk. That is how it is. For Japanese developers they also want to use large quantities of video, and they tend to want the highest quality video they can get(particularly Squenix). In realistic terms, that is the most likely issue requiring a bundle of DVDs over a single next gen disk.

The first paragraph is hardly worth commenting, but maybe they would rather use DVD discs, because the X360 has a DVD-drive. I remember playing FF8 and 9 which both had 4 CDs, and I don't remember people complaining much about that...

The fact is that your arguments aren't even close to overcoming the obstacles your suggested method would most certainly have.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Multiple CD's were continually used for a long time due to the cost of the disc replication being signficantly cheaper than DVD for a long time. That situation will be replicated with higher capacity formats as well.