Everyone wants Xbox360 Premium, No one wants Xbox360 Core System

[Titanio]

Multiple CD's were continually used for a long time due to the cost of the disc replication being signficantly cheaper than DVD for a long time. That situation will be replicated with higher capacity formats as well.

Not on consoles. You never saw PS2 or Xbox games come on multiple CDs instead of a DVD. I'm guessing you're thinking of PC games, but that has as much to do with catering to an audience still without DVD drives in their PCs as with DVD cost.

FWIW, Sony claims that Blu-ray will be available to publishers at a small premium compared to DVD.

 

[expletive]

Not on consoles. You never saw PS2 or Xbox games come on multiple CDs instead of a DVD. I'm guessing you're thinking of PC games, but that has as much to do with catering to an audience still without DVD drives in their PCs as with DVD cost.

FWIW, Sony claims that Blu-ray will be available to publishers at a small premium compared to DVD.

Didnt the original Resident Evil (PSX) come on 2 CDs?

EDIT: I missed the point of your post, which was multiple CDs instead of DVDs on a console where a DVD drive was available.

 

[Dave Baumann]

In otherwords, its more expensive!

However, the console manufacturers are will have their standard formats and they are likely setting the costs to produce on those formats. The required format for 360 is DVD - if a publisher wanted to do something else, then its probably at their own cost.

 

[Phil]

It did, which is why I assume Titanio specifically mentioned consoles that supported more than one storage format (PSone only supported CDs)...

 

[superguy]

I'm not even talking about FMV, just in-game assets. Like I said, data requirement isn't necessarily a function of game-world size, or solely a function of that. But I accept your point that 'genuine' usage of more disc capacity beyond improving data quality (like better audio bit-rates etc., hd video etc.) also presents challenges in terms of production, but it's not like we've hit a ceiling in terms of asset production for games, or the capacity to do that (though obviously that will vary from game to game, budget to budget, but the general trend will be upward).

The general trend will be upward to a point. After a point the current technology and RAM will make endless data redundant.

As if you had a DVD drive in Playstaytion 1, it wouldn't have improved the qaulity of games greatly, as you're still held back by processing power and 2MB RAM.

 

[Titanio]

The general trend will be upward to a point. After a point the current technology and RAM will make endless data redundant.

As if you had a DVD drive in Playstaytion 1, it wouldn't have improved the qaulity of games greatly, as you're still held back by processing power and 2MB RAM.

Sony would argue that they're simply maintaining the ratio of optical disc capacity:ram/power that the previous systems enshrined. And they are. DVD was "just right" for PS2/Xbox, but I think it could be too little for PS3/360 as much as it might have been too much for PS1. Sony's not the one bucking the trend here in terms of how disc capacity has scaled with system memory and processing power.

 

[Platon]

FWIW, Sony claims that Blu-ray will be available to publishers at a small premium compared to DVD.

Didn't Sony say that all games for PS3 will be comming out on BR to avoid piracy or something like that. Anyway, any idea how much the premium is?...

 

[one]

Multiple CD's were continually used for a long time due to the cost of the disc replication being signficantly cheaper than DVD for a long time. That situation will be replicated with higher capacity formats as well.

CDs are OK as long as you can install them on HDD...

Also you have to deal with the piracy issue now that the Xbox 360 is vulnerable to it.

Didn't Sony say that all games for PS3 will be comming out on BR to avoid piracy or something like that. Anyway, any idea how much the premium is?...

Much less than $10 but a bit more expensive than DVD DL.

 

[Titanio]

Didn't Sony say that all games for PS3 will be comming out on BR to avoid piracy or something like that. Anyway, any idea how much the premium is?...

Yes, all PS3 games are to be on Blu-ray. Piracy was the stated reason, but IMO it's pretty obviously part of a strategy to encourage publishers to use the space, such that other systems would look more inconvenient.

Sony didn't indicate an exact per-disc cost, just that it would only be a little more than DVD. I would not be surprised if they were subsidising the cost a little themselves, though maybe that wouldn't even be necessary. It's been a while since we've heard anything about Blu-ray disc costs, come to think of it.

 

[Platon]

Yes, all PS3 games are to be on Blu-ray. Piracy was the stated reason, but IMO it's pretty obviously part of a strategy to encourage publishers to use the space, such that other systems would look more inconvenient.

Sony didn't indicate an exact per-disc cost, just that it would only be a little more than DVD. I would not be surprised if they were subsidising the cost a little themselves, though maybe that wouldn't even be necessary. It's been a while since we've heard anything about Blu-ray disc costs, come to think of it.

So when you said that Sony would make BR "available" to publishers you ment that Sony will press the discs for them...

 

[one]

So when you said that Sony would make BR "available" to publishers you ment that Sony will press the discs for them...

All PS format discs are pressed by Sony including UMD.

 

[predicate]

True, Halo moved a massive 5.5 Million units while WoW has only managed a paltry 6 million.

6 million units in half the time. On PC (typically sells fewer units per game). For a game with a monthly fee.

WoW's sales are anything but 'paltry'.

 

[BenSkywalker]

The first paragraph is hardly worth commenting, but maybe they would rather use DVD discs, because the X360 has a DVD-drive.

Exactly, that is the point.

I remember playing FF8 and 9 which both had 4 CDs, and I don't remember people complaining much about that...

Really, I sure do.

The fact is that your arguments aren't even close to overcoming the obstacles your suggested method would most certainly have.

Are games going to exceed DVD9 this generation? Yes.

Has MS fragmented their userbase? Yes.

Is MS in need of the types of titles that are going to exceed DVD9? Yes.

Would developers rather release on one disk then multiples? Yes.

I don't think that any of those points are arguable, so I guess I'm a bit confused as to what exactly you are saying the major issue is going to be? MS is getting throttled to the level of abject humiliation in Japan right now, the same region that houses the developers they need to increase their market presence on a global basis. These are the developers that are the most likely to want to push their games out the door on a single disk. You may or may not realize it, but they have NO compelling reason to move their development from the PS3 to the 360 at this point. Nigh no market penetration, non national corporation, very poor performance history for Japanese titles and then you add the additional headaches of having to go multiple disk. There is only downsides when comparing it to the PS3 for those devs/publishers.

So is it worth more to MS to have an attractive platform to develop for to attract the games they wouldn't get otherwise, or does it make more sense for them to avoid fractionalizing further their already fractionalized userbase?

Multiple CD's were continually used for a long time due to the cost of the disc replication being signficantly cheaper than DVD for a long time.

I know you don't follow consoles Dave, but releasing multiple disks using a format less then the most expansive one available for a platform has never been done in the console industry. There were never any multi CD PS2 native games, there were never any multi CD XBox games- it does not happen. This isn't PC gaming, and if MS doesn't understand that they will fail with absolute certainty.

6 million units in half the time. On PC (typically sells fewer units per game). For a game with a monthly fee.

WoW's sales are anything but 'paltry'.

I thought the fact that I called Halo's 5.5Million massive would give a good indicator that that was said tongue in cheek. WoW is bigger then Halo by a long shot right now, some people simply are under the impression that MMORPGs are all dwarfed by MS's big shooter.

 

[Xpuntar]

Exactly, that is the point.

...

I know you don't follow consoles Dave, but releasing multiple disks using a format less then the most expansive one available for a platform has never been done in the console industry. There were never any multi CD PS2 native games, there were never any multi CD XBox games- it does not happen. This isn't PC gaming, and if MS doesn't understand that they will fail with absolute certainty.

....

Wrong! At least for PS2. I know for certain and I did see a 4CD Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance once.

 

[Dave Baumann]

I know you don't follow consoles Dave, but releasing multiple disks using a format less then the most expansive one available for a platform has never been done in the console industry. There were never any multi CD PS2 native games, there were never any multi CD XBox games- it does not happen. This isn't PC gaming, and if MS doesn't understand that they will fail with absolute certainty.

That'd certainly explain why every Sega Megadrive / Genesis title that came out after Sega CD was released came out on CD. Oh, hold on...

And that is the effective console analogy you have here. The format for 360 is DVD, and it will stay that way. I'd imagine that the only way you are likely to see games released on HD-DVD is with special editions, that the publishers can charge more for.

 

[BenSkywalker]

That'd certainly explain why every Sega Megadrive / Genesis title that came out after Sega CD was released came out on CD. Oh, hold on...

OK, I'm holding on waiting for the part where you list what games were released on multiple carts as I so explicitly spelled out in my comment

And that is the effective console analogy you have here. The format for 360 is DVD, and it will stay that way.

Could you post those multiple cart games that came out after SegaCD? I'll gladly take what I have asserted back if you could show me when it has happened before. To quote myself-

but releasing multiple disks using a format less then the most expansive one available for a platform has never been done in the console industry

Wrong! At least for PS2. I know for certain and I did see a 4CD Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance once.

Pirated perhaps? It isn't on any official release list that I can find anywhere- DVD only.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Really, I sure do.

Well I don't and changing a disc for every 10 hours of gameplay and complaining about it just makes me feel that you(and others) need to exercise more.

Has MS fragmented their userbase? Yes.

But not nearly to the degree what games on HDDVD would create, but for some reason this difference in user base means nothing to you.

I think MS has lost Japan already and allowing developers to release their games on HDDVD would change nothing MS will never get exclusives like FF which is what would be needed to gonquer Japan, they have much better change to get GTA which would make huge impact on the western fronts( not saying it will happen). By allowing game releases only on HDDVD they would only make them look foolish for launching prematerly and not waiting for Next-Gen drive. I'm pretty sure they have calculated that DVD9 is enough for them and that the external HDDVD-drive is solely for movies, but I quess we will have to wait and see to get 100% certainty over the matter.

 

[Dave Baumann]

You do it by increasing the number of ROM chips within the cart. However, you also said less expensive - CD's would have been less expensive than increasing the ROM size and manufacturing the carts. But the analogy still stands - the reasons why Sega CD didn't take off as a viable format will be the same as those for HD-DVD based games. MS's aim is to sell as many units/games as possible, which is why the Core unit is here and likely to remain so, in order to penetrate into cheaper price points - for MS, developers, publishers, etc. its here where the value proposition is.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

As I said, I only have about 180 hours into Oblivion right now...

We already know there is a game that is pushing towards taking up 3 DVD9s heading to the 360- I don't know about you but I'm not too fond of shuffling disks around when I'm trying to play and I don't know too many people who are either.

180 hours into a game that takes up half of a single DVD, and you're worried about "shuffling disks around when [you're] trying to play..."?

OMG, you're going to have to get off your couch once after ten days of solid, non-stop gameplay to switch a disc!?! WTH is the world coming to?

Do you know how ridiculous you sound sometimes? So what if a game comes out on ten DVD-9's. It will take a year to play through it, and since I'll probably switch the disc about a hundred times to play other games during the month it will take me to play through one disc's worth of data, I don't think this is going to ruin my life.

 

[Titanio]

180 hours into a game that takes up half of a single DVD, and you're worried about "shuffling disks around when [you're] trying to play..."?

Please stop this. You could fit "180 hours of gameplay!" on a floppy disc if you wanted Data requirement is not solely dependent on game-world size or game length. All it boils down to is the amount of (pre-computed) unique data assets required by the game, and the amount of compression that can be used. It's not about how many hours is in the game or the game-world area, in and of themselves.