Everyone wants Xbox360 Premium, No one wants Xbox360 Core System

[DuckThor Evil]

Why? The HD only games are on their way, and I would say the first ever Square/Enix game to hit a MS system is high profile. What would make you assume that they wouldn't utilize HD-DVD exclusively for a game? DVD is extremely small for this generation of games when looking at what the Japanese devs are going to be pushing- is MS going to just give up entirely on the Far East developers? I don't see that happening.

If they need more space, they will ship the games on multiple DVD's, external HDDVD drive will never sell enough to warrant releases only on it, it's simple math! Do you actually think that Square would release High profile game only on HDDVD when the target audience would be very limited number, I mean come on! The cost to create High profile Square-game is so large that you need large user base to make money, and external HDDVD-drive basically meant for HD-movies on X360 certainly is not going to be large enough to warrant such grazy actions.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Oblivion is ~ 4 gig, right? . . .

With no real FMV anywhere(true, I only have 100 hours into the game and completed a couple hundred quests including all of the main story so maybe I haven't run into it yet?). OoT was 32MB, FF7 was ~1.5GB. You can make an enormous game on a DVD9, that isn't an issue at all. What you can't do is fit a lot of HD-FMV content onto DVD-9.

If they need more space, they will ship the games on multiple DVD's

More likely most will just ship on Blu-Ray.

external HDDVD drive will never sell enough to warrant releases only on it, it's simple math!

They will release a system with it built in, likely just about in time to hit the 360's sales peak.

The cost to create High profile Square-game is so large that you need large user base to make money

Obviously Squenix isn't going to release DQ9 on the 360, MS didn't execute on a next gen platform in full and that will assure that none of the major titles will hit their platform. I was simply bringing that up to point out that MS, if offered, would be utterly moronic to not allow a HD-DVD exclusive game on the 360. Think about the R&D, packaging, distribution and marketing headaches for an add on that only plays movies- does that make any sense on a game console? Considering they would collect no royalties for the device ever if they didn't have games on it- what possible motive does MS have for doing it?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Obviously Squenix isn't going to release DQ9 on the 360, MS didn't execute on a next gen platform in full and that will assure that none of the major titles will hit their platform. I was simply bringing that up to point out that MS, if offered, would be utterly moronic to not allow a HD-DVD exclusive game on the 360. Think about the R&D, packaging, distribution and marketing headaches for an add on that only plays movies- does that make any sense on a game console? Considering they would collect no royalties for the device ever if they didn't have games on it- what possible motive does MS have for doing it?

So what you're saying is that MS will first sell 10million consoles with DVD-drives and then next year we will have to buy another X360 to play the new games right...
And that actually makes sense to you, well all I can say is that I'm happy that you don't get to make the decision on that

 

[BenSkywalker]

So what you're saying is that MS will first sell 10million consoles with DVD-drives and then next year we will have to buy another X360 to play the new games right...

What was I thinking, of course you are right. That would be like them releasing a console for $300 and then within a month tell people they had to buy a $100 accessory if they wanted to play every game on the system- something like that would never happen, not a chance......

They release the add on for those who already own the system.

And that actually makes sense to you, well all I can say is that I'm happy that you don't get to make the decision on that

I actually think it shows a level of stupidity that can scarcely be understood. Much the way I look at the Core system and the fact that people actually believed MS when they lied about not needing a HD. But let's face the facts here- I'm not talking about something outrageous and unheard of- it took MS less then a quarter from initial launch before they did this exact same thing. They already have split the user base and they already have required the purchase of a three digit upgrade in order to be able to play games. You act like what I'm talking about is unthinkable.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I actually think it shows a level of stupidity that can scarcely be understood. Much the way I look at the Core system and the fact that people actually believed MS when they lied about not needing a HD. But let's face the facts here- I'm not talking about something outrageous and unheard of- it took MS less then a quarter from initial launch before they did this exact same thing. They already have split the user base and they already have required the purchase of a three digit upgrade in order to be able to play games. You act like what I'm talking about is unthinkable.

The difference is that I'd say that 90% of X360 owners have HDD, and there are like 1 game that requires HDD, there will probably be more, but that's not the case, the userbase is hardly split if everyone has HDD. You are wayyy over simplifying things when you compare HDD and HDDVD as being the same thing.

 

[BenSkywalker]

The difference is that I'd say that 90% of X360 owners have HDD

Not even close to 90%, I'm not sure if it is close to a majority at this point. Don't try and judge the market penetration by enthusiast forums where everyone knows MS is forcing people to upgrade to play all the games they want. The majority of systems selling right now are Core systems, and the HD upgrade is not shipping anywhere near 1:1 with Core. At the first price drop the rift is likely to expand rapidly, $199 draws a lot more buyers then $299.

You are wayyy over simplifying things when you compare HDD and HDDVD as being the same thing.

Will MS lie about requiring an upgrade? Yes.

Will MS lie about requiring a three digit upgrade to play a high profile game? Yes.

We know these things as point of fact. A lot of people were saying that MS wouldn't require the HD at all prior to the 360 launch because that is what they said. I found that highly amusing then as I do people thinking they won't require the HD-DVD player now.

Simply look at it from a business perspective. What benefit does MS have developing the HD-DVD drive if it will never be used for games? How are they going to recover the R&D costs unless they charge an amount comparable to a set top box if not more if they don't use it for games? What possible reason does MS have for ever releasing the device if they don't intend to use it for games? Looking at it from a business perspective it makes no sense at all if it is a real product. Either A- it's vapouware or B- it's for games.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Not even close to 90%, I'm not sure if it is close to a majority at this point. Don't try and judge the market penetration by enthusiast forums where everyone knows MS is forcing people to upgrade to play all the games they want. The majority of systems selling right now are Core systems, and the HD upgrade is not shipping anywhere near 1:1 with Core. At the first price drop the rift is likely to expand rapidly, $199 draws a lot more buyers then $299..

I quess I will just have to take your word for it... Umm I think not. I haven't heard of single person that has bought core, but hasn't bought the HDD, now that I think of it I don't know anybody that has bought core. I remember hearing figures that about 80 manufactured for the launch were Premiums. X360 has sold bably in Japan, but I think it's pretty telling that they only sell Premiums there, it's because MS focuses heavily on the Premium enabling them to sell content on the marketplace.

Will MS lie about requiring an upgrade? Yes.

Will MS lie about requiring a three digit upgrade to play a high profile game? Yes.

We know these things as point of fact. A lot of people were saying that MS wouldn't require the HD at all prior to the 360 launch because that is what they said. I found that highly amusing then as I do people thinking they won't require the HD-DVD player now.

Simply look at it from a business perspective. What benefit does MS have developing the HD-DVD drive if it will never be used for games? How are they going to recover the R&D costs unless they charge an amount comparable to a set top box if not more if they don't use it for games? What possible reason does MS have for ever releasing the device if they don't intend to use it for games? Looking at it from a business perspective it makes no sense at all if it is a real product. Either A- it's vapouware or B- it's for games.

Man you sound bitter...

MS's benefit is trying to counter PS3's main advantage over X360 which is the ability to play HD-movies. I don't think you should be talking about Business perspective when your ideas of the future are so illogical.

 

[skilzygw]

I would buy the core for $250 if it came with the HD Cables.

I like the wired controller so i can use it on my pc. And i don't use live. But the real reason is I can buy the larger HDD when they become available, instead of having the 20 gb packed in.

$299 is about 50 bucks to much IMO.

 

[Platon]

Will MS lie about requiring a three digit upgrade to play a high profile game? Yes.

Which high profile game would that be? And we are talking about one game only don't we...

 

[BenSkywalker]

Missed response

I quess I will just have to take your word for it... Umm I think not. I haven't heard of single person that has bought core, but hasn't bought the HDD, now that I think of it I don't know anybody that has bought core.

No offense but you come from a market that is likely smaller then the State I live in- and you also come from an area where the 360 is doing relatively speaking quite poorly. Here in the US the situation is quite different, and right now we are the market that matters. BTW- I had to buy a Core, Premiums are not available for sale over here except on very rare occasion. Cores are everywhere. MS is pushing Cores hard ATM.

I remember hearing figures that about 80 manufactured for the launch were Premiums.

Perhaps for the initial launch they were(I heard 50/50 but I have no idea if that was accurate), ask anyone living in the States about the situation since then.

MS's benefit is trying to counter PS3's main advantage over X360 which is the ability to play HD-movies.

How do you think they will pull it off for less then the cost of a set top box without taking a hit? The PS3 is going to do it for the cost of the console alone- THAT is the PS3's big advantage.

I don't think you should be talking about Business perspective when your ideas of the future are so illogical.

This is what I do for a living; and judging by my bonuses someone thinks I'm pretty good at it. Why don't you try and explain how MS is going to pull off a low cost add on for an expensive new technology with no possible royalty kickback and do it for less then a set top player cost. I would be extremely interested in hearing this.

I take my stance by looking at it from MS's perspective. It would be, on a financial basis, stupid of them to not utilize the drive for games. They can't justify keeping the price of the upgrade reasonable(loss leader) if they don't and they can't justify the pricing of it to consumers if they don't use it as a loss leader(if upgrade~= dedicated set top then no sales).

Which high profile game would that be? And we are talking about one game only don't we...

FFXI- we are only on the second quarter for the 360 and a hard launch promise is being violated. Give it a year and see.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Well, let me say that I'm just bowled over by the amount of evidence that has resulted in the conclusion that MS will allow games to be published on HD-DVD.

The premise itself is actually very solid: MS is going to do something that is going to fracture their userbase, cost them more money, cost the consumer more money and lose their pricing advantage over Sony and the PS3.

Therefore, it must obviously be the case!

As far as I can tell, the evidence for this is that MS offers the HDD as an accessory?

So let's see.. a business decision designed to give MS the early price advantage and also the earliest profitability point leads one to conclude that MS will take steps in the future to reverse both of those key strategies?

 

[Platon]

FFXI- we are only on the second quarter for the 360 and a hard launch promise is being violated. Give it a year and see.

Hasn't online play always been said to work with HDD only. Isn't FFXI an online game?...

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

BTW- I had to buy a Core, Premiums are not available for sale over here except on very rare occasion. Cores are everywhere.

Well, that about sums it up, doesn't it? A bitter consumer who knew prior to his purchase that he was going to have to overpay due to the fact that demand was greater than supply, yet chose to do so anyway, and is still upset at about it.

Nobody forced you to buy a Core, plus a HDD, plus HD cables, plus a wireless controller. You made the decision to overpay because you didn't want to wait until the X360s were more readily available.

MS is pushing Cores hard ATM.

Really? And do you have any evidence of this? Considering you've had no evidence to support any of your other claims, I doubt it.

How do you define "pushing...hard"? Is MS manufacturing more Cores than X360s? Or is it just that you see more Cores than X360s because the only people who are buying the console now are hardcore gamers who know better than to buy the Core system, so the Cores sit on the shelves while the X360s don't?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

No offense but you come from a market that is likely smaller then the State I live in- and you also come from an area where the 360 is doing relatively speaking quite poorly. Here in the US the situation is quite different, and right now we are the market that matters. BTW- I had to buy a Core, Premiums are not available for sale over here except on very rare occasion. Cores are everywhere. MS is pushing Cores hard ATM..

Maybe the cores are everywhere, because nobody buys them? and vice versa for the premiums...

How do you think they will pull it off for less then the cost of a set top box without taking a hit? The PS3 is going to do it for the cost of the console alone- THAT is the PS3's big advantage.

Well basically MS doesn't have to make profit with the add on alone, maybe they are going to sell it with tight margin, just to make the platform as a whole more appealing to average consumer, it's also possible the MS might get the drives with heavy discounts, because if HDDVD want's to survive against Blu-Ray they'll need all the help they can get, besides if I remember correctly HDDVD-drive is officially supported by Windows Vista and Blu-Ray is not, so we don't really know everything that happens behind the curtains. Also simple add on drive wouldn't cost as much to make as fancy set top box.

This is what I do for a living; and judging by my bonuses someone thinks I'm pretty good at it. Why don't you try and explain how MS is going to pull off a low cost add on for an expensive new technology with no possible royalty kickback and do it for less then a set top player cost. I would be extremely interested in hearing this.

Well it seems that some of your other predictions have been more accurate than this one,
I hope you don't have any bonuses anchored to this one

 

[BenSkywalker]

Nobody forced you to buy a Core, plus a HDD, plus HD cables, plus a wireless controller. You made the decision to overpay because you didn't want to wait until the X360s were more readily available.

What gives you the impression that I really cared about what I paid? The difference in a $100 is nothing to me, I'm commenting on what is going on and that's it. When Oblivion went gold, I picked up a 360 and everything required to play it. I had an issue at work that required me to have a couple of guys go in with me over the weekend to get it straightened out by today- the amount I spent buying them lunch was about that. Right now I have purchased eight 'real' games plus a few on XBLA so all told in about a month I dropped about ~$1K on my 360. No complaints really(well, PGR3 absolutely sucks but I digress ), just pointing things out. The only thing that has really bothered me is that my HD died on me and I had to get it replaced. I wouldn't have minded that much but I lost my lvl 27 mage on Oblivion(that did piss me off quite a bit).

Well, let me say that I'm just bowled over by the amount of evidence that has resulted in the conclusion that MS will allow games to be published on HD-DVD.

I'll gladly post evidence, as soon as you provide any reasonable evidence that says they won't. Based on their statements to date we have more reson to believe it will then it won't(so far 100% of expensive add ons released to date are required to play all upcoming games which they said wouldn't be the case).

Is MS manufacturing more Cores than X360s?

Yes, by a lot right now.

Or is it just that you see more Cores than X360s because the only people who are buying the console now are hardcore gamers who know better than to buy the Core system, so the Cores sit on the shelves while the X360s don't?

I work in distribution- my job is securing merchandise to distribute. Ask anyone who actually works in the business on the same end. MS is filling orders for Core very quickly, certainly not for the premiums.

Hasn't online play always been said to work with HDD only.

Nope, works just fine with a memory card.

Maybe the cores are everywhere, because nobody buys them? and vice versa for the premiums...

Cores are moving rapidly through the channels right now.

Well basically MS doesn't have to make profit with the add on alone, maybe they are going to sell it with tight margin, just to make the platform as a whole more appealing to average consumer, it's also possible the MS might get the drives with heavy discounts, because if HDDVD want's to survive against Blu-Ray they'll need all the help they can get, besides if I remember correctly HDDVD-drive is officially supported by Windows Vista and Blu-Ray is not, so we don't really know everything that happens behind the curtains. Also simple add on drive wouldn't cost as much to make as fancy set top box.

In other words- MS has absolutely nothing making them want to make it a reasonably priced add on. There is no compelling reason for them to do so whatsoever. They have publicly lamented both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray with their talk of online distribution being the future. They have no vested interest in HD-DVD.

Well it seems that some of your other predictions have been more accurate than this one,
I hope you don't have any bonuses anchored to this one

My bonus would be based on my prediction of how they will sell and having the proper inventory to fill orders. I'll figure that out when I see the MSRP(which I have no info on as of now).

 

[superguy]

I feel if Microsoft only make premium system they will have much more sales and demand for softwares but because not many people like to have core systems much less demand is there for software.

Good grief, when will it end?

Some people are still bitter about this.l.it's telling most of them aren't 360 owners either..

Hey if you want to complain, complain about a company who's mind you can still change on the matter. E-mail Sony and demand they include the HD in EVERY box.

By the way, there's no evidence core systems aren't selling.

I saw four systems in Hasting the other day. Only one was core. Guess they're selling like hotcakes and Micsrosoft needs to drop that premium!! Oh wait, it could be any reason, including that MS doesn't ship very many cores, this store was an oddity, just chance, etc etc etc.

Usually what I see sitting on shelves is premium..take that however you wish.

 

[dukmahsik]

wow, pls show me the poll polling "everyone" on this

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

What gives you the impression that I really cared about what I paid?

The bitter tone of every one of your posts in this thread.

The only thing that has really bothered me is that my HD died on me and I had to get it replaced.

I'd say that's reason #2 to explain your bitterness with MS.

I'll gladly post evidence, as soon as you provide any reasonable evidence that says they won't.

You want me to prove a negative, while you posit the positive as a valid position without evidence?

And you do 'this' for a living? I'm thinking you must have meant author bitter, unfounded, illogical messages in discussion forums, rather than any degree of business forecasting as you previously implied.

Based on their statements to date we have more reson to believe it will then it won't(so far 100% of expensive add ons released to date are required to play all upcoming games which they said wouldn't be the case).

Now, is that a statement or is that an action? I also wasn't aware that 100% of upcoming games require the HDD. Care to provide evidence of that claim?

..ohh.. that's right. I'd have to prove that 100% of them won't require the HDD. I forgot the rules of your world.

Yes, by a lot right now.

Figures? Link? MS is manufacturing 'a lot' more Cores than X360s? I'd love to see the evidence.

DAMN IT! I did it again. I forgot, I'm supposed to prove that they aren't.

I work in distribution- my job is securing merchandise to distribute.

So you're a part time employee at Game Stop? Thank you. That seems to make more sense.

MS is filling orders for Core very quickly, certainly not for the premiums.

Wait.. wait.. a second ago I asked if you knew if MS was making more Cores than X360s and you said "Yes, a lot".

Now it seems you are saying they are filling orders for Cores more quickly. Which is a different metric, isn't it?

Also.. I'm wondering, if Cores are available everywhere but nobody is buying them and X360s are nowhere to be found and MS isn't filling orders for them.. Why is anybody actually ordering more Cores to the point you can establish that MS is filling those orders
"very quickly"?

In other words- MS has absolutely nothing making them want to make it a reasonably priced add on. There is no compelling reason for them to do so whatsoever.

But I thought MS had to offer the HD-DVD because they had to offer games on HD-DVD for some reason you have yet to explain?

 

[Platon]

Nope, works just fine with a memory card.

Yep, sorry. Being an old xbox owner and since that a PC gamer, the concept of mem cards is a bit distant to me and never take them to concideration as I have never used them.

Anyway the point is that when you buy a core you will have to buy other stuff for it if you want to get the most out of it as is clearly shown here . I don't get what it is that gets people so upset, it is not as if it has never been done before, that certain games have required certain accerories and in that way you split the user base. One could say by not offering mem cards as standard you split the userbase as well...

 

[superguy]

I have only a core.

At time I purchased, I think price was some consideration even then. But anyway I had no choice. The line was like 100 people and I was like, there were only 8 left after mine..in other words only cores left.

I planned to buy a HD but I hadn't seen them on shelves. Whoever said they were in shortage is correct. They still are I think.

Anyway now it's a question of money. I just haven't felt I had that spare 100 bucks, combined with it doesn't seem that easy to find the HD anyway.

I want to get the HD, MS has done good making it indespensible. I sure dont want it for custom soundtracks or to save or streaming for faster loads or any of that jazz. I want it for Xboxlive. Mostly the demos, everytime one comes out like Tom Raider I cant get it. Also for Xbox live arcade and saving trailers.

But even then, I've waited this long. The system is fine without it. I want one before SF2 hits XBLA, but even that will fit on a mem card in the meantime.

So gaming on X360 with no HD..I'm proof it's possible! I play GRAW with no HD!

I'd go so far as to say..if you're NOT on Live with broadband, there's little reason to have it.