Everyone wants Xbox360 Premium, No one wants Xbox360 Core System

fearsomepirate said:
Compared to that -$100 they made on the first Xbox, sounds pretty good to me. I wonder how much profit they actually make on HD cables and memory cards. Something seems weird to me about loudly announcing the "HD Era" and shipping without HD cables, but then...

It not so nearly cut and dry as that. If the consumer only buys a MC they lose $X of revenue. For each user that goes balls out, and buys seperate cables, HDD and wireless controller, they maybe make an extra $X. So, basically you guys are saying MS gambled that the profits lost on the initial sale of the core, would be made up by people buying HDD's and Component Cables, I don't see that being a very wise or necessary gamble.

I do agree with you though that it's pretty patetic not to ship component cables and wireless controlle with both packages.
 
3. MS will NOT be splitting their userbase. All that talk of requiring HD-DVD is nonsense IMO. Same goes with the HDD except in a handful of cases (like FFXI).

MS already has split their userbase, so I'm a bit confused as to exactly what you mean? They aren't going to split it further?

Hypothetical- Bethesda has released their two expansion packs for Oblivion and what they have done this time is to include the surrounding provinces into one giant area that you can freely explore. Option A- you get a swap disk message when you are trying to move between provinces- Option B- PC/PS3 only- Option C- Use the HD-DVD drive. What choice would you expect and what choice would you want to see as a gamer?
 
BenSkywalker said:
MS already has split their userbase, so I'm a bit confused as to exactly what you mean? They aren't going to split it further?

Hypothetical- Bethesda has released their two expansion packs for Oblivion and what they have done this time is to include the surrounding provinces into one giant area that you can freely explore. Option A- you get a swap disk message when you are trying to move between provinces- Option B- PC/PS3 only- Option C- Use the HD-DVD drive. What choice would you expect and what choice would you want to see as a gamer?

There is a difference to not being able to play a game or two if you don't have a HDD and to not being able to play 50% of the games for the system.

Anyway, hypotheticaly we can discuss this till we are blue in the face and our fingers are bleeding from all the typing, so why not discuss this instead when MS has announced their first HDDVD only game(s). Personaly, if they don't get an extremely high attach ratio of their HDDVD drives I can't see it happening, it would be suicide...
 
I agree with 95% of what BenSkywalker has posted.
Does anyone think MS wants to lose another $x billion or so on hardware costs this generation?
The Core and Premium idea was sheer genius.... here in the UK you can only buy the Core version with a game and a wireless controller for a LOT more than you could buy a Premium version, even if you added the game to it.
And the HDD? What HDD? I haven't seen any for sale.
 
And you cannot buy a Core version for the stated £199 price either... everywhere "I" have looked a game is forced on you in a bundle.

I really hope someone doesn't tell me I am bitter about MS and the Xbox360. Who cares...it's just a toy. :devilish:

I only buy Nintendo consoles at launch, the rest come in later.. and this time round I am highly likely going to be skipping Revolution at launch too.

Update: (If anyone is looking for a Premium Xbox360 for the price of £279.99 in the UK try argos)
 
BenSkywalker said:
Option A- you get a swap disk message when you are trying to move between provinces- Option B- PC/PS3 only- Option C- Use the HD-DVD drive. What choice would you expect and what choice would you want to see as a gamer?

Worst case scenario is that they will release both a DVD and HD-DVD version of the expansion pack, the userbase would not be split as everyone has the capability of playing the game.

Also, in your hypothetical, you didn't address the fact that Oblivion only uses half a DVD disc as it is, and the majority of that is most likely audio.

you also missed option D) Rework the game to fit within 8GB's

The worst case is that publishers release DVD & HD-DVD versions of games, I wouldn't be averse to that, just like PC games with CD & DVD.HD-DVD would have to have a very large attach rate for that to happen though.
 
I only see one scenario where we get HD-DVD games on the Xbox360 - it is seen as the only way to prevent people buying PS3 because it has "superior than DVD Blu-ray."
This would be a purely perception and image decision and have very little to do with technology and storage.

Scenario = PS3 is selling 10 to 1 Xbox360 early in its life (within 48 months), MS convinced that the public see Xbox360 as inferior because of lack of a next gen media storage player and oodles HD FMV. MS release a few exclusive HD DVD only titles, discount the HD DVD add on and... mess things up pretty bad.


As with all hypothetical future scenario's please dont quote me if I am totally wrong and made to look foolish. ;)
 
Dr Evil said:
Ben do you think that the installed user base for the HDDVD-drive would grow to large enough to warrant Halo 3 or some other high profile game to be released only on HDDVD. I don't think that will happen. There is way too much risk for MS to do it, they don't gain anything for it, they could just as well release the big games on multiple DVDs.

I think MS would prefer to have the entry price to buying/playing Halo 3 as low as possible, this should theoretically enable Halo 3 to sell as many consoles as possible.

I could see a limited edition on HD-DVD though to help drive that installed base as well.
 
Tahir2 said:
I agree with 95% of what BenSkywalker has posted.
Does anyone think MS wants to lose another $x billion or so on hardware costs this generation?

No, that's the entire point.

The Core and Premium idea was sheer genius....

I guess this fits into the 5% of the part you disagree with BenSkywalker over?

here in the UK you can only buy the Core version with a game and a wireless controller for a LOT more than you could buy a Premium version, even if you added the game to it.

Thats how it was in NA as well. But this was due to shortages and retailers taking advantage of those shortages to force bundles on their customers. This is no longer the situation in NA now that supply is beginning to meet demand, and I expect it will change in the UK shortly as well.

And the HDD? What HDD? I haven't seen any for sale.

I guess this also falls into the 5% where you disagree with BenSkywalker, since his entire premises is based upon the fact that the HDD is readily available, there is no shortage of HDDs and MS is only offering the Core to generate more revenue at the expense of supposedly splitting their user base.

Just curious.. which parts exactly did you agree with BenSkywalker on?

His basic premise that since MS offered the Core and Premium varieties in a strategy to increase market share while also increasing profitability, that they would be willing to make HD-DVD only games in the future (which would have the effect of decreasing market share and reducing profitability)?
 
His basic premise that since MS offered the Core and Premium varieties in a strategy to increase market share while also increasing profitability,
I would reword it a little to:
His [BenSkywalkers] basic premise that since MS offered the Core and Premium varieties in a strategy to increase profitability (or lack of loss) while also increasing market share.

I thought BenSkywalker was arguing that MS does not want to sell much of the Premium versions of the consoles even though they can because most of the money (or less loss) is in the Core version.
 
Tahir2 said:
I would reword it a little to:
His [BenSkywalkers] basic premise that since MS offered the Core and Premium varieties in a strategy to increase profitability (or lack of loss) while also increasing market share.

I thought BenSkywalker was arguing that MS does not want to sell much of the Premium versions of the consoles even though they can because most of the money (or less loss) is in the Core version.

You are correct, he didn't mention anything about market share.
 
Topic: Makes sense. The core pack was primarity just a straw man to distract people from the price of the Premium by seeing it as "better value".
 
That is £209.99 so my statement is not incorrect.
Technically at least. ;)

I saw Argos doing it for £209.99 too...
 
I know I messed up, but then I am even more correct. You cannot buy the Core at £199.99 in the UK ;)

But seriously... I went into Game and guess what? No advertised Core or Premium system for the advertised MSRP £209.99 and £279.99.

I had to ask for a bares bones price on the Premium and was quoted £283 and some pennies. I wonder if all the major retailers are doing this instore - advertising bundles only but selling non-bundled Core's and Premium's too only if someone asks.

Not that I blame the retailers, the profit made on consoles on their own is normally close to zero. The games is where it is at.
 
To preface my comments- MS is a business. As a business their job is to make money. I am nothing remotely resembling a communist in any way shape or form- I have absolutely no problem with a company doing what they are supposed to do. I am not a delusional loyalist to any company- if one of them is doing something that will make them money that is not a bad thing in and of itself.

Ben do you think that the installed user base for the HDDVD-drive would grow to large enough to warrant Halo 3 or some other high profile game to be released only on HDDVD.

Depends on a lot of factors. What if they released Halo3 as HD-DVD and bundled it with the HD-DVD drive for $100? Then yes, I would say it would hit an enormous percentage of the installed base. Not that I expect anything like that to happen, but until we know more details it would be hard to say exactly what kind of penetration they can expect. Price point would certainly be a nice element to have nailed down.

Worst case scenario is that they will release both a DVD and HD-DVD version of the expansion pack, the userbase would not be split as everyone has the capability of playing the game.

Unless BethSoft wasn't interested in doing that. If they want it all on one disk or not at all, what do you think MS would say? They would be foolish to let their biggest non shooter franchise leave the platform.

Also, in your hypothetical, you didn't address the fact that Oblivion only uses half a DVD disc as it is, and the majority of that is most likely audio.

I only have about 180 hours into Oblivion so far, but I would say that if the audio took more then a few hundred MBs I would be very surprised. Music samples are quite limited and are stereo(converted to 5.1) along with voices(which also have a rather low sampling rate compared to raw .wav). Oblivion also exceed half of DVD-9, weighing in @4.7GBs. If they were to push out two expansion packs allowing you to play through the other provinces there is no way it would fit onto a DVD9 unless they went last gen with all of their art assets.

you also missed option D) Rework the game to fit within 8GB's

I supposed they could also rework it back in to a 2D game and fit it on a CD too if they really wanted to. No compromises required of course. An easier option for them would be to just release on the PS3/PC instead.

since his entire premises is based upon the fact that the HDD is readily available

You have a point

http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product_id=802117

How can I even try to say

http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product_id=802117

that HDs are

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4196270

readily available

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...7509-5190323?n=14112941&s=videogames&v=glance

? :p
 
Your arguments are ridiculous, if MS's standard is DVD disc, and BethSoft wants to do HD-DVD they'll get told NO. Why do you assume MS is going to change their entire business plan because one publisher asks them? And why would BethSoft "not prefer" to release a DVD version and serve the majority of the userbase? Makes no sense.

As fas as comparing DVD and CD you're talking about an order of maginitude difference between the two, making something fit on 8GB is feasible, making something fit on 650mb is ridiculous.

The audio in oblivion is hours upon hours, and was rumoured to be ~5gb itself before the game launched. Regardless, the fact remains Oblivion uses just over half a disc.

I'm done here, you're arguments do not address any of the cons associated with releasing HD-DVD games, nor do you explain WHY MS would do this, what do they have to gain by fracturing their userbase? why would they essentially DOUBLE the price of Halo 3, just to get an HD-DVD drive installed? It makes absolutely no sense, and just is not a well thought through scenario.

If MS wants to make money, which is your premise, seems to me they would demand that at the very least all games released for the console have both a DVD and HD-DVD version so that can sell to 100% of their userbase and collect the maximum amunt of royalties.
 
scooby_dooby said:
Your arguments are ridiculous, if MS's standard is DVD disc, and BethSoft wants to do HD-DVD they'll get told NO. Why do you assume MS is going to change their entire business plan because one publisher asks them? And why would BethSoft "not prefer" to release a DVD version and serve the majority of the userbase? Makes no sense.

As fas as comparing DVD and CD you're talking about an order of maginitude difference between the two, making something fit on 8GB is feasible, making something fit on 650mb is ridiculous.

The audio in oblivion is hours upon hours, and was rumoured to be ~5gb itself before the game launched. Regardless, the fact remains Oblivion uses just over half a disc.

I'm done here, you're arguments do not address any of the cons associated with releasing HD-DVD games, nor do you explain WHY MS would do this, what do they have to gain by fracturing their userbase? why would they essentially DOUBLE the price of Halo 3, just to get an HD-DVD drive installed? It makes absolutely no sense, and just is not a well thought through scenario.

If MS wants to make money, which is your premise, seems to me they would demand that at the very least all games released for the console have both a DVD and HD-DVD version so that can sell to 100% of their userbase and collect the maximum amunt of royalties.


It's hilarious Oblivion is by far and away the biggest game ever even imagined and it only uses up 1\2 of a DVD, so why do we need BR\HDDVD for gaming again?
 
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