Everyone wants Xbox360 Premium, No one wants Xbox360 Core System

[BenSkywalker]

Well I don't and changing a disc for every 10 hours of gameplay and complaining about it just makes me feel that you(and others) need to exercise more.

I think I'm all set on the exercise front, body fat less then 6% last I had it checked. Ignoring that, when did I ever say anything about me complaining? FF8 was far too poor of a game for me to ever make it to the second disk, I was talking about the tons of complaints going around in general. Perhaps there is a bit of a disconnect as you don't seem like you are the type to get very immersed in your games. As someone who does, having to change disks is the kind of slap in the face that takes me out of it for hours.

But not nearly to the degree what games on HDDVD would create, but for some reason this difference in user base means nothing to you.

I would wager that unless MS decides they don't want to release the HD-DVD add on at all the installed base for it will be larger then the total installed base for the 360 is right now on a global basis. This may mean nothing to you, but total potential sales do tend to matter to publishers.

I think MS has lost Japan already and allowing developers to release their games on HDDVD would change nothing MS will never get exclusives like FF which is what would be needed to gonquer Japan, they have much better change to get GTA which would make huge impact on the western fronts( not saying it will happen). By allowing game releases only on HDDVD they would only make them look foolish for launching prematerly and not waiting for Next-Gen drive. I'm pretty sure they have calculated that DVD9 is enough for them and that the external HDDVD-drive is solely for movies, but I quess we will have to wait and see to get 100% certainty over the matter.

A game coming out on multiple DVDs instead of a single next gen is going to show how wise they were launching early? They were premature launching the 360 though, everyone knows that.

A four year generation? It was too short, and MS knows this. As far as giving up on Japan- they are not going to make significant headway in the global market if they take that attitude. They need the Eastern developers desperately. I would certainly agree with you that they have a much better shot of landing Rockstar as exclusive then anything important from Squenix, but how much is that going to impact them know what a Rockstar exclusive means? Also, GTA is one of the titles that is very likely to require multiple disks on the 360.

You do it by increasing the number of ROM chips within the cart. However, you also said less expensive - CD's would have been less expensive than increasing the ROM size and manufacturing the carts.

When did I say less expensive...? I said less expansive. Still waiting for those multiple cart games. Sega never exceeded their initial stated limits for carts btw(Vectorman was the largest at 32Mb).

But the analogy still stands - the reasons why Sega CD didn't take off as a viable format will be the same as those for HD-DVD based games.

So your position now is that MS is going to release another expensive hardware add on within a few months of the HD-DVD drive and then announce a new console a couple of months after that? That is why SegaCD failed. You may not remember it very well, but I sure do(as an owner of SegaCD and 32x).

MS's aim is to sell as many units/games as possible, which is why the Core unit is here and likely to remain so, in order to penetrate into cheaper price points - for MS, developers, publishers, etc. its here where the value proposition is.

Core is here to protect margins. Those that are truly worried about an extra $100 are not the customers MS is the most worried about(nor Sony). I've dropped $550 on 360 games in a month and a half- I am the type of customer that makes them their fat margins. I will play whatever the games are on and I can tell you without a hint of uncertainty if a game hits on both 360 and PS3 and one is multi disk while the other isn't- I'm going single(as will anyone given the choice).

180 hours into a game that takes up half of a single DVD, and you're worried about "shuffling disks around when [you're] trying to play..."?

I played the original DragonWarrior for the NES around ten times that long, and that was 1MB IIRC, what is your point?

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Please stop this. You could fit "180 hours of gameplay!" on a floppy disc if you wanted

Yes, but we aren't talking about floppy discs now are we? Or even CD's. We're talking about 9GB of data. Even with FMV that's hours of nonstop playtime. My point stands. With disc swaps being at the end of a level or similar, I don't see the big "gameplay interruption" when this is going to happen after hours upon hours upon hours of solid gameplay.

In realistic terms, we're talking days of gameplay before you need to change a 9GB disc.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Ben, I’m not sure why, but you appear to keep presuming stuff about me that you don’t really know. I happen to be a 32X owner as well, which I bought for Virtua Racing at the time – however, both formats failed because, unlike the base unit, they just couldn’t hit the critical mass that made them worthwhile for developers/publishers, even Sega gave up on 32X pretty quick. And, FYI, Street Figher 2 exceeded the 32Mb cart size.

It may be your impression that the Core is here to protect MS’s margins, and that may well be part of the case (certainly now), but its also there it penetrate into the mainstream quicker than the Premium can in order to increase the volume of sales. Its my opinion that, rather than dropping the core unit off, these will be continued so that when the price cuts start occurring it can come more into the $200, and later $150 regions, these will exceed the sales of the whatever premium type packs they have at that time.

 

[Titanio]

Yes, but we aren't talking about floppy discs now are we? Or even CD's. We're talking about 9GB of data. Even with FMV that's hours of nonstop playtime. My point stands. With disc swaps being at the end of a level or similar, I don't see the big "gameplay interruption" when this is going to happen after hours upon hours upon hours of solid gameplay.

In realistic terms, we're talking days of gameplay before you need to change a 9GB disc.

My problem is fundamentally in drawing a line between playtime or gameworld size or the like with data requirement on a disc. Simple as that. One could make a very short game with huge data requirements, or a very long one with relatively little. It all depends on the requirements of the game. It's not like 9GB is all you'd ever need for X hours of gameplay or Y square-kilometers of game space. Whether it's enough or not is entirely dependent on other factors.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Let's not get ridiculous. MS will not be splitting their userbase. 99.9% of Xbox 360 games will work on Core units with a DVD player until this generation is over.

 

[Xpuntar]

...

Pirated perhaps? It isn't on any official release list that I can find anywhere- DVD only.

Well what I saw definetly wasn't pirated version. Probably first initial release of the game in Europe was shipped on 4CD only later they rereleased the game on DVD.

From Afterdawn forum

All of the beginning first year titles were CD based games. Gradius III IV, Time Splitters, among many others. The first DVD-ROM game that I ever came across was Onimusha. Now DVD-ROM games are the predominant way to go. ...

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I think I'm all set on the exercise front, body fat less then 6% last I had it checked. Ignoring that, when did I ever say anything about me complaining? FF8 was far too poor of a game for me to ever make it to the second disk, I was talking about the tons of complaints going around in general. Perhaps there is a bit of a disconnect as you don't seem like you are the type to get very immersed in your games. As someone who does, having to change disks is the kind of slap in the face that takes me out of it for hours.

LOL to the entire chapter and not least to the less than 6% thingy. Oh and I do get very immersed, but I'm still able to lift my lazy ass from the couch every 10h if needed.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I am a bit dumbfounded by your comments here- they haven't split their userbase yet because none of the titles they are releasing look like they will be big hits to you...? Is that your logic?.

No. If you could read, it's for MMO's, and maybe some other games but there are none currently released.

So where is the precedent? Show me a non MMO game that requires the HDD. I'll be waiting!

Now...lets take a look at your logic. Your logic: publishers will sacrifice 90-99% of the X360 userbase simply because they can not figure out how to spread a game across multiple DVDs? Developers did it all the time on PS1.

So we're back to square 1, if there ever are HD-DVD games, they will have DVD versions as HD-DVD will never have a huge attach rate (due to the fact it's a post-launch peripheral) and publishers will want to maximise profits.

Bottom line: attach rate for HD-DVD will be too low to warrant HD-DVD only games

 

[rounin]

So where is the precedent? Show me a non MMO game that requires the HDD. I'll be waiting!

I seem to recall a Football Manager 2006. But not sure if thats MMO.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I seem to recall a Football Manager 2006. But not sure if thats MMO.

Yep, I mentioned it earlier. But it's not actually released is it?

 

[rounin]

Yep, I mentioned it earlier. But it's not actually released is it?

I see. But I don't see your point

 

[Bigus Dickus]

My problem is fundamentally in drawing a line between playtime or gameworld size or the like with data requirement on a disc. Simple as that. One could make a very short game with huge data requirements, or a very long one with relatively little. It all depends on the requirements of the game. It's not like 9GB is all you'd ever need for X hours of gameplay or Y square-kilometers of game space. Whether it's enough or not is entirely dependent on other factors.

I'm not talking about extreme hypotheticals, and I'm also not attempting to suggest a hard correlation between data space and playtime. But of your above examples, which do you think would be successful (whether multiple discs were required or not): a huge (datawise) game that played very very short, or a small game (single disc of whatever type) that played forever?

Personally, I've never found multidisc games to be that much of a bother, but I do understand that they rub some people the wrong way. It isn't like waiting for Buck Rogers on the Adam to spool the tape back and forth in the middle of action gameplay.

 

[Titanio]

I'm not talking about extreme hypotheticals, and I'm also not attempting to suggest a hard correlation between data space and playtime. But of your above examples, which do you think would be successful (whether multiple discs were required or not): a huge (datawise) game that played very very short, or a small game (single disc of whatever type) that played forever?

Either could be a success, but success is defined in so many ways. Commercially, creatively, a fulfilment of developer ambition, whatever. But in all senses, either could be a success. But why is that relevant? What matters in this argument is how a system accomodates the requirements and/or future requirements of a developer with a particular vision.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I see. But I don't see your point

Point is that until it's released it hasn't happened yet, and plans can change.

I looked it up though, and it was actually released last week. Europe only though, can anyone confirm that it requires HDD? I actually hope it does, that would confirm this MS is leaving this option open to developers, which is a good thing imo.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Point is that until it's released it hasn't happened yet, and plans can change.

I looked it up though, and it was actually released last week. Europe only though, can anyone confirm that it requires HDD? I actually hope it does, that would confirm this MS is leaving this option open to developers, which is a good thing imo.

Football Manager has such a huge database and player tracking that it would be impossible to make it work without HD. that game is MASSIVE!

 

[NavNucST3]

Point is that until it's released it hasn't happened yet, and plans can change.

I looked it up though, and it was actually released last week. Europe only though, can anyone confirm that it requires HDD? I actually hope it does, that would confirm this MS is leaving this option open to developers, which is a good thing imo.

from a gamespot review By judus6521 Posted Apr 15, 2006 12:54 am PT:
[snip]


Quote: ...and by the way you need a 20gb hard drive to play this game which you find out in the small print.
[snip]

So yeah, you need one. Which I would say does leave it up to the developers.

 

[NavNucST3]

I would buy a core if I could save games on my other 360. I know that a Media Center or Vista hdd is the most obvious place, but I already own a 360 w/ hdd, if I could stream my saves to say the downstairs 360, I would get one. As it stands now, I think the upstairs hdtv will either get a PS3 attached to it or another 360 system possibly with hd dvd addon. There is no room in the bedroom for that bigass Toshiba HD A1.

 

[rounin]

Point is that until it's released it hasn't happened yet, and plans can change.

I looked it up though, and it was actually released last week. Europe only though, can anyone confirm that it requires HDD? I actually hope it does, that would confirm this MS is leaving this option open to developers, which is a good thing imo.

So in view of that and the posts following...both points are moot (as well as the point for asking for a precedent )

 

[Dave Baumann]

http://www.play.com/Games/Xbox360/RNR/3-/719185/Football_Manager_2006/Product.html

 

[scooby_dooby]

So in view of that and the posts following...both points are moot (as well as the point for asking for a precedent )

True enough, it's all good though, this argument is silly anyways. I'm just glad we've got confirmation that 360 games can have HDD required games.