Reeves talked about PAL region. What part of the smiley was ambigous?
European Console Sales (2009 Edition)
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Reeves talked about PAL region. What part of the smiley was ambigous?
I don´t believe that, it would be pretty stupid. I bet MS got better internal numbers than that. Do you have anything to back up your claim?
I think we shouldn't discuss this too hard as there are no independant data 
The discussion was the same ~some months ago when MS announced that they passed the 7 millions bar and that sony stated they are neck to neck.
All this PAL/Europe discussion has already been beaten to death.
The most relevant part is that in Europe MS moved a million units "pretty" fast.
The discussion was the same ~some months ago when MS announced that they passed the 7 millions bar and that sony stated they are neck to neck.
All this PAL/Europe discussion has already been beaten to death.
The most relevant part is that in Europe MS moved a million units "pretty" fast.
No, Microsoft's numbers are for EMEA - Europe, Middle East and Africa, just as Sony's numbers are for PAL territories (including e.g. Australia).
Neither talks about Europe on it's own, and the 'top 5' report was a selective piece by Eurogamer already discussed in this thread months ago.
NathansFortune
Regular
I think we shouldn't discuss this too hard as there are no independant data
The discussion was the same ~some months ago when MS announced that they passed the 7 millions bar and that sony stated they are neck to neck.
All this PAL/Europe discussion has already been beaten to death.
The most relevant part is that in Europe MS moved a million units "pretty" fast.
It's not that fast. I can find a 360 an a game for £110 in certain supermarkets, these things should be selling like nobody's business. The fact that the PS3 is even competitive is a let down, and this is completely ignoring the Wii which is priced at £199 starting Apirl 1st in most places. It's like coming 7th in a race and saying "look I beat the overweight one legged guy, how awesome are we - the months of agony and training really paid off" or something to that effect...
If/when this pricecut for the PS3 materialises I can't see how MS are going to counter it, at least in Europe, they don't have any more price points left to cut to that give them a significant reduction in the cost of entry, yet they are selling 360s at a similar rate (by all accounts) to the much more expensive PS3 which has 3 major price cuts to go through.
All-in-all MS should be embarrased by that 8m figure, they launched 18 months earlier are currently selling the 360 for less than half the price of the PS3 yet they have moved the same (or near) number of consoles.
Last figure were from the end of Novembel 2008.
They managed to sell +1 millions units during decembre, january and february I think in regard to the economic situation thay can actually be happy.
Ms stated that Europe was their next battle ground I'm sure they are pleased with the results ie they managed to stay neck to neck (even slightly ahead) with Sony on a market.
What would you call fast for reference? Wii like sales or back in time ps2 kind of sales (a dominant console with no real competitors). Basically I fail to see how Ms would be embarassed by these numbers neither I think that MS was hoping to reach Wii/ps2 like sales at this time (if ever).
All in all your comment sounds a lot like "a company like Ms should be happy for anything but the fist place they have so many dollars is not even fun /bashing/ etc."
But markets don't work that way, they had to make a name for themselves, they faced a huge issue named RroD, they don't have a strong exclusive in early 2009.
Ms gaming division is gaining ground in Europe, overall they are profitable now it was a tough battle for them and it's not over. They are pretty well positioned for next fall imo.
They managed to sell +1 millions units during decembre, january and february I think in regard to the economic situation thay can actually be happy.
Ms stated that Europe was their next battle ground I'm sure they are pleased with the results ie they managed to stay neck to neck (even slightly ahead) with Sony on a market.
What would you call fast for reference? Wii like sales or back in time ps2 kind of sales (a dominant console with no real competitors). Basically I fail to see how Ms would be embarassed by these numbers neither I think that MS was hoping to reach Wii/ps2 like sales at this time (if ever).
All in all your comment sounds a lot like "a company like Ms should be happy for anything but the fist place they have so many dollars is not even fun /bashing/ etc."
But markets don't work that way, they had to make a name for themselves, they faced a huge issue named RroD, they don't have a strong exclusive in early 2009.
Ms gaming division is gaining ground in Europe, overall they are profitable now it was a tough battle for them and it's not over. They are pretty well positioned for next fall imo.
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Maybe, but comparatively speaking the progress they made isn't that much different from their progress in the U.S. or in Japan. About 66% of Xbox1 sales were in the U.S., 33% in the E.U., and 1% in Japan (I'm simplifying a slight bit, but not much).
Their strategy has so far given them a comparatively better position in all three markets. I agree however that the PS3 is still a serious threat, especially in the context of its current price point versus future price-points, and especially if it continues to improve its online service, keeps pushing great games and keeps PSN free.
But the longer it takes the PS3 to get to that price-point, the more room the 360 has to improve on the Xbox1, which I think they've already matched right now, so everything else from here is potential market loss for Sony vs Microsoft (never mind Nintendo for the moment ).
Their strategy has so far given them a comparatively better position in all three markets. I agree however that the PS3 is still a serious threat, especially in the context of its current price point versus future price-points, and especially if it continues to improve its online service, keeps pushing great games and keeps PSN free.
But the longer it takes the PS3 to get to that price-point, the more room the 360 has to improve on the Xbox1, which I think they've already matched right now, so everything else from here is potential market loss for Sony vs Microsoft (never mind Nintendo for the moment
).
DuckThor Evil
Legend
It's also completely ignoring the fact that the PS2 outsold the Xbox1 5:1... And in Europe the difference was even bigger. Getting 1:1 in this gen or close to it would be an outstanding achievement for MS, atleast if we take history into account.
I'd like to see some new car company step in and sell more cars than Toyota after five years in the business.
Well actually things were not going that well in Euroland, in one year I think they've managed to get back on their feet. It's not magic nor they are completely responsible for this matter of fact the euro/dollars change rate helped them a lot to reach to neat price advantage against Sony. I think they've just recovered for the RroD impact. I still think that they may have score a nice point in UK.
I can't completely agree that it would foolish to discard the PS3 in Europe. Sony editing power can't be discard and the playstation brand is still really strong in a Europe (actually I think MS really did a name for itself in UK only).
In regard to price I'm sure than MS will still have a significant price advantage by fall 2009 , even if Sony drops ps3 price by 100 euros Ms is likely to follow with a 50 euros drop + some special offer (as actually in France). Price gap should still be consistent to price sensitive constumers say 150 euros. (Between Sony is really out of luck with the change rate 100 could prove difficult if things don't evolve positively in this regard).
In regard to the live fee... well on one side it's like some odd tax it's illed percieved (at least in France from personal experience) on the other side this along with not mandatory but really expansive accessories allow MS to really pull the system price down. So I guess their marketing guys must be thinking something like:
X system price // Y live fee // Z expansive/proprietary accessories
Y+Z allows me to pull the system down to X-a
Having the system @ X-Delta will bring me say xx more costumers.
At the same time I don't think that Z has much effects but Y costs me as much as yy costumers.
Ms must be balancing thing out, if things start to look uglier than expected we will see how say adapt.
Sony's strength are well know, I'm more concerned with Ms, I mean Ms has still to announce its line up for fall 2009 and later on. So far except for some empty/meaningless promises about better techs than KZ2 that will rock your short ( lol) I see nothing coming...
I still think that it's about games and Ms could be weakened by some exclusives not living up to their hype/promises. Anyway we still have to learn about those more and more hypothetic exclusives...
You should consider Ms more as a moving target anyway I agree that as Sony reach affordable price Ms would be illed inspired to encounter some execution hiccup (lack of risks/agressivity, under delivering games, etc) Sony pressure in Europe is likely to grow bigger and bigger, Ms will have a tough game later on.But the longer it takes the PS3 to get to that price-point, the more room the 360 has to improve on the Xbox1, which I think they've already matched right now, so everything else from here is potential market loss for Sony vs Microsoft (never mind Nintendo for the moment
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In the absence of more information, one should assume that the latest announcement covers the same region as the previous announcement. The December 7-million announcement was specifically stated to cover the top 5 countries, as you mentioned. This 8-million announcement wasn't as specific, but from what do you conclude that it is all of EMEA?
All Microsoft announcements are EMEA. Strangely they called out SCEE for including extra countries in their 'Europe' figures yet they do exactly the same.
It's par for the course with European figures, unfortunately.
NathansFortune
Regular
New generation, new rules. Just because I did well last time around doesn't mean I should somehow inherit the next round. Nintendo and Sony know what I'm talking about...
From the botched launch to the expensive price, to the lack of cost reductions and lack of games for the first 18 months of its life, tell me, is it Sony who did very, very poorly or MS who have done well? My money is on the former...
You didn't adress the Wii either, it is far more expensive than the base 360 yet it gets outsold every month. I'm looking at the data now and there hasn't been a single week in since Halo 3 launched that Wii hasn't outsold it in Europe (made up of UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Benelux, Eastern Europe, I added the figures together myself, and no this isn't shitty VGChartz data, it is by GfK/ChartTrack data that my company subscribes to).
Just a question here.
Sony did poorly the first 18 months the system was too expansive and some games didn't hold on their promises it's pretty much a fact we all know and aknowledge.
On the other side Ms did have more games, a cheaper and comparable system and for a year no competitor. So say Sony did plan better Sony would have "beaten" MS right?
Why if new generation new rules? Ms would still have had good games and a competitive system? weird, no?
And Ms did suffer from thr RroD, they lose costumers (quiet some mouth to mouth is important especially for high informed early adopters), they couldn't lower the price as soon as expect, bad press even some lawsuits, etc.
I don't know where you want to go with this wii comparison... but I may find out soon
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I'd put my money on both. The 360 is a good competitive product.
DuckThor Evil
Legend
Past performance and mindshare certainly helped Sony a great deal. Imagine if some newcomer came to the market year late costing 600$ and with that game selection... That's 3DO territory right there. Imagine if the PS3 launched in 2005 at 399$ and the X360 year later at 499-599$. What would have happened then?
My money is on both. And imo it's perfectly obvious. You already pointed out the mistakes Sony did, but give no credit to MS for coming early, being less expensive and having a massive library of well received 1st and 3rd party games
I didn't realise I had to adress The Wii in some way... But the thing is,The Wii is selling to a completely different democraphic, so basically it's like comparing apples and oranges. I'm sure cookies also outsell X360 every week.
The thing you probably misunderstood is that, I didn't say that the past performance of a console is the only thing that matters. It is very important though and Nintendo is succeeding despite that. The simple and very casual friendly user interface that work well with the Nintendo first party games is clearly better suited to the mass market than these highly engineered and evermore complex entertainment center machines. Although in Finland the unit sales in the year 2008 was 1.PS3 2. X360 and 3. Wii...
NathansFortune
Regular
But it didn't happen that way. That's the point.
Pointing those out makes my argument even stronger! To be merely equal after all of that as well as the Sony mistakes makes it that much worse tbh.
If you believe that every Wii sold doesn't take a potential sale away from PS3/360 you are sorely mistaken. If PS3/360 were truly in a different demographic why have MS been pushing so hard with casual titles (Lips, You're in the Movies), NXE. They even ruined a perfectly good franchise (BK) to try and make it casual/family friendly. Sony have been in casual gaming for much longer than Nintendo, and they know the power of it, the PS2 didn't sell to 100m core gamers, there aren't that many core gamers to sell to.
The thing you probably misunderstood is that, I didn't say that the past performance of a console is the only thing that matters. It is very important though and Nintendo is succeeding despite that. The simple and very casual friendly user interface that work well with the Nintendo first party games is clearly better suited to the mass market than these highly engineered and evermore complex entertainment center machines. Although in Finland the unit sales in the year 2008 was 1.PS3 2. X360 and 3. Wii...
NES/Gameboy? Nintendo have got massive brand equity around the world, characters like Mario/Pikachu are more recognised than world leaders, so Nintendo succeeding at gaming shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, but their downfall (NG4/GCN) shouldn't have come as a surprise either. The way they acted towards the end of their reign at the top is similar to how Sony were in 2004-2006 and both times the arrogance and "the fanboys will buy it" attitude led to their eventual downfall. Now don't get me wrong, I think Sony are in a much better position than Nintendo were in 1994 but again it is down to Sony employing similar strategies (strong first party) and the fact that Sony are more diversified (they aren't soley a gaming company, hell it isn't even their biggest business).
If only Finland were representative of world trends...
Dr Evil is kind of right no matter that the wii stole marketshare form Sony and microsoft the fact remains that the demograhic for the ps360 and the wii doesn't overlap that much, core gamers can't represent the whole market but they managed to buy ~50 millions ps360 in around three years and bought bunch of games.
In regard to casual games, well the obvious answer would be "because they want their share of the pie".
No too mention that diversity in a game catalogue can't hurt.
You continue to ignore the RroD impact. Microsoft will never make public the estimates about how costumers they lose. I'm sure the impact has been huge especially as europeans had to wait even more for the ps3. That's something that hurted them not only in Europe and kind makes your point valid.
Nevertheless in the end they managed to make their way in Europe, they could have done better for sure. Overall "embarassed" is out of picture imo the feel @Ms must be more "happy that our mistakes were compensated by even bigger mistakes".
Sony could not have easily match the 360 perfs while launching at the same price or they would have to cut BRD or specs or built in functionality. It would have been another competition all together.
In regard to casual games, well the obvious answer would be "because they want their share of the pie".
No too mention that diversity in a game catalogue can't hurt.
You continue to ignore the RroD impact. Microsoft will never make public the estimates about how costumers they lose. I'm sure the impact has been huge especially as europeans had to wait even more for the ps3. That's something that hurted them not only in Europe and kind makes your point valid.
Nevertheless in the end they managed to make their way in Europe, they could have done better for sure. Overall "embarassed" is out of picture imo the feel @Ms must be more "happy that our mistakes were compensated by even bigger mistakes".
Sony could not have easily match the 360 perfs while launching at the same price or they would have to cut BRD or specs or built in functionality. It would have been another competition all together.
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The 360 is selling 35% better than the XBox did in Europe. Should we credit that to MS or Sony?
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