Entitled gamers, corrupt press and greedy publishers

My stance is this. If I would like to sell a game/SW product that requires an internet connection I should be free to do that. A lot of people will not be able to use that product and should therefor not buy it. That is perfectly fine. But there should be very few restrictions on what you can produce and sell. And if people buy my product despite not liking my restrictions, good for me! Hopefully a competitor without my restrictions will not appear, but that can happen in a free market.

And then, because we don't need any market regulation, you can buy or bankrupt any competitors and make sure you have the only product of it's type in the market! Yay for you. Yay for deregulation.

This world, so naively imagined, where software has this persistent connection to it's copyright holders will propagate and it's the wet dream of far more than just a few small software houses. One more nail in the coffin of privacy and fair use.
 
Getting back to always-online DRM, it seems nobody wants to answer the questions of "what if" all software, DVDs, music, etc. worked this way? By the arguments used in favor of always-online DRM, this should be acceptable for these as well, right? No more movies on the iPad at 35,000 feet or DVDs on the TV in the basement where there is no internet connection or working on that presentation as you fly to Japan.

All of those are unthinkable for the same reason something as trite as not being able to play SimCity on the way to China is unthinkable. There is no good reason for an internet connection to be required.

For me it's really not so much the idea that Online-DRM can be a problem when there is no internet, the problem is that i really don't owe whatever i actually bought. At any point in time someone can just hit the kill switch and my purchase is gone. Take a look at the billboards in Blade Runner, all selected with the idea it was gigantic corporations that would never die, good i didn't buy ODRM products from them. I have no problem with entering serials, copy protection etc that stop piracy. Actually i always thought that the reason that Microsoft never really strengthened copy protection in windows was all down to being invested in the XBOX. Imho it should be possible build a hardware/software solution into every PC that was just as secure as the XBOX or PS3.

Online-DRM is imho just another layer to the copy-protection where in reality those that pay for their software, once again get screwed over while the pirate copies "just work".

And those who mention MMO's Online-DRM as an example of "good" ODRM, well there is no game when you aren't online, it's an entirely different subject since the game is all about being online.
If simcity FIVE was a real online MMO there would be no bitching about the ODRM, but it isn't, it's at most a turbo charged cloud save service.
 
But -tkf- if you worked for a software company, then you'd support your customers never actually owning your product because, yay for you, you can force them to upgrade over and over or lose their legacy of data.
 
And then, because we don't need any market regulation, you can buy or bankrupt any competitors and make sure you have the only product of it's type in the market! Yay for you. Yay for deregulation.

This world, so naively imagined, where software has this persistent connection to it's copyright holders will propagate and it's the wet dream of far more than just a few small software houses. One more nail in the coffin of privacy and fair use.
OK I don't get where that is heading, I completely agree that the world is pretty rotten still I don't see how we can change this. People still believe that capitalism, competition and free market are synonym...

So in my world I would not bet on the "always on DRAM to have a legal death, sadly.

There is no ethic consideration imo, business guys are testing solution and to which extend the market accept those solutions. We don't have much choices as the market is already locked down, that the result of years of subsidizing from MSFT and Sony, big money made sure that possibly better designs, business models failed.

Imho the ethical approach to the problem is not relevant, neither the legal approach as big companies have the laws they want voted. It will be about market acceptance of those practices, I'm not bullshit that it is going to fail, I wish they would go with something "better" as ultimately it smells fishy and the "license" model could ended up spreading outside of the software world (but I think the mods opened a thread on the matter in the RSPC forum).
 
But -tkf- if you worked for a software company, then you'd support your customers never actually owning your product because, yay for you, you can force them to upgrade over and over or lose their legacy of data.
Indeed, I had a great discussion with one of my best friend working for a big company that deploy SAP for its costumers. They are always laughing when a dumbass IT director to go with their solution thinking it will save money etc. The truth is that they enslave them-selves in their at environment with really few ways out (/none pretty fast).
 
But there *is* a better way. Periodic authentication. Steam's model is amazing because it's nearly invisible and works great. I can start a game of CivV on my dual GTX680/3600x1920 rig, save it to Steam cloud. Then I can login to Steam on my gaming laptop and save the game locally. Then go into offline mode, play it on a plane for 14 hours to China, then reconnect and save it to the cloud, etc.

Because of periodic authentication and base-system updates, Steam can catch me if I pirate and I like the features and smoothness of operations so much I wouldn't.
 
But there *is* a better way. Periodic authentication. Steam's model is amazing because it's nearly invisible and works great. I can start a game of CivV on my dual GTX680/3600x1920 rig, save it to Steam cloud. Then I can login to Steam on my gaming laptop and save the game locally. Then go into offline mode, play it on a plane for 14 hours to China, then reconnect and save it to the cloud, etc.

Because of periodic authentication and base-system updates, Steam can catch me if I pirate and I like the features and smoothness of operations so much I wouldn't.
Well I think Steam does a good job at fighting the second hand market (any form of digital download would if law doesn't interfere with that practice) but I would question the extend to which their policies affect piracy.
I would be wary on the topic, in some way I would assert that Steam managed to capture (through a good service and pricing) a user base that is (/was already) unwilling to pirate games /real costumers. I don't think it changed piracy in the PC realm, they just offered a proper hub to an audience willing to stick with legal offering /to pay.
 
But there *is* a better way. Periodic authentication. Steam's model is amazing because it's nearly invisible and works great. I can start a game of CivV on my dual GTX680/3600x1920 rig, save it to Steam cloud. Then I can login to Steam on my gaming laptop and save the game locally. Then go into offline mode, play it on a plane for 14 hours to China, then reconnect and save it to the cloud, etc.

Because of periodic authentication and base-system updates, Steam can catch me if I pirate and I like the features and smoothness of operations so much I wouldn't.

The amount of important passwords I need to remember daily is already too much and just to satisfy Steam I would be forced to check. But as that's a bother for the only game I've ever bought with Steam access(HL2) I click away the Steam Window like with other stupid popup ads.

That's one of the reasons I buy 99.9% of my games for the console. But then these business drones invent stuff like UPlay to annoy me even there. Naturally I wouldn't ever bother to use it which is their loss.

I don't want to be bothered by thousand different custom registrations to play. Once is enough and even that I would prefer to avoid and just link it to some unique console ID. If somebody needs to see their own name on the screen with some custom avatar it should be up to them to waste their lifetime filling up all that fluff.
 
But -tkf- if you worked for a software company, then you'd support your customers never actually owning your product because, yay for you, you can force them to upgrade over and over or lose their legacy of data.

If i worked for a software company that did that i would of course do as i told (and most likely try to find another job since my heart wouldn't be in it), but if i owned a software company that did that, well then it wouldn't be mine and i would wake up from my nightmare.
 
But there *is* a better way. Periodic authentication. Steam's model is amazing because it's nearly invisible and works great.

As i mentioned in another thread, Steam has one fundemental flaw, it's a one man show. When my kids get old enough to dig into my 157 game collection (by then it will be bigger) i will have to use the "offline" feature on the machines they play on. Since i can only play one game at a time with steam. And since there is no family option i may be breaking some weird EULA that i never read anyway.
 
As i mentioned in another thread, Steam has one fundemental flaw, it's a one man show. When my kids get old enough to dig into my 157 game collection (by then it will be bigger) i will have to use the "offline" feature on the machines they play on. Since i can only play one game at a time with steam. And since there is no family option i may be breaking some weird EULA that i never read anyway.

My son is old enough, but he has his own Steam account now (and groups/friends on Steam). As I said, I'm the industry's favorite kind of consumer - even though they want to screw me over with always-on - I or he simply buy him a second copy if there's a game he really likes.

Don't impede my use, get more business.
 
My son is old enough, but he has his own Steam account now (and groups/friends on Steam). As I said, I'm the industry's favorite kind of consumer - even though they want to screw me over with always-on - I or he simply buy him a second copy if there's a game he really likes.

Don't impede my use, get more business.

If i had the cd's he could just borrow them.
 
Honestly, I haven't really touch f2p. I've tried out swtor for bit but got really turned off it. But it's funny that games like Battlefield and Call of Duty can launch no problem. I haven't touch simcity but it can't be anymore expensive to launch that game online than say fifia? Aren't like 17 million people playing that game a year?

Battlefield 3 had massive problems at launch with user connectivity and people not being able to play. No different than any other game that relied on online connectivity for that majority of it's gameplay. On PC that was exacerbated by massive problems with the Origin service when BF3 launched.

COD does well now as expectations are well understood. As well, isn't COD peer to peer while BF3 is client/server? Making it far easier to manage the server load for COD versus BF3, hence why COD launches are relatively pain free. Add to that, Activision isn't trying to foist their version of an online store on every game they launch unlike EA (on PC that is). So Activision didn't have to deal with the same kinds of problems as EA did with Origin.

Regards,
SB
 
Do you really think most buyers of SimCity are going to be informed by a suitable press prior to purchase if that press existed?

We do all the time. We've just had the EU say digital downloads need to be resellable, forcing Steam to allow a resell option, or whatever the ruling was.

Sure, but most times that has zero impact. I didn't agree with the pricing policy of CDs. I refused to buy them. The end result is I didn't have CDs when everyone else did because they were happy to pay that much. That's the way free market commerce works - largest common denominator, and if the largest common denominator won't change their buying habits, the market will continue to exploit them. That's a discussion for the RSPCA forum, of course. Suffice to say as long as companies can employ DRM to the betterment of their bank balance, they will. The chances of consumers forcing the issue with their wallets is low so there's little reason for those who'll vote with their dollars to expect most other folk to follow suit. If you want other people to change buying habits, you need to provide a direct alternative. SimCity with DRM versus SimCity without, and you'll get buyers voting with their purchase option.

But consumers do have the power to effect change.

Games are ridiculously low priced because consumers are resistant to pay more. That is entirely a consumer driven thing. Developers and publishers are going out of business because they don't want to risk alienating consumers.

Publishers also put a lot of focus on successful sequels because consumers have said, with their spending dollars, that they really want more of the things they enjoy. They then use the money from those bankable assets to fund development for new risky IP in the hopes of finding another bankable asset. There's a reason COD, Madden NFL, Battlefield, etc. only change in minor ways. Players want more of what they enjoy. You deviate from that too much and you will likely lose almost all of your paying customers.

Publishers are also realizing that just making a sequel isn't enough. If you change it enough that it no longer offers consumers more of what they want then consumers reject the game and Publishers suffer. And hence you see what used to be a bankable asset turn into a loss generator instead. Overtime, just like many other things they'll learn or they'll go out of business.

If change doesn't happen, guess what? The consumers (the majority) have voted with their spending dollars that whatever X person doesn't like isn't a view shared by the majory of paying customers.

At no point is regulation required, IMO. The market will decide what is acceptable and what isn't.

In the case of gaming, I think it's pretty obvious that always online connectivity, DRM, and other such concerns are extremely minor for the vast majority of consumers. And that what is far more important to them is the quality of the game and experience.

But DRM and always online connectivity get a lot of attention due to the vocal minority. Sales on the other hand, don't reflect that vocal minority because the vast majority of people just don't care. It's not an important or even noteworthy consideration for them when buying something.

And consumer spending shows that quite well. A well developed game that people enjoy playing doesn't sell more without DRM than it does with DRM.

Regards,
SB
 
Ahhh! You're killing me with reality. I'd gladly pay $150 for SimCity5 with no always-online...but I don't get that option.
 
But there *is* a better way. Periodic authentication. Steam's model is amazing because it's nearly invisible and works great. I can start a game of CivV on my dual GTX680/3600x1920 rig, save it to Steam cloud. Then I can login to Steam on my gaming laptop and save the game locally. Then go into offline mode, play it on a plane for 14 hours to China, then reconnect and save it to the cloud, etc.

Because of periodic authentication and base-system updates, Steam can catch me if I pirate and I like the features and smoothness of operations so much I wouldn't.

Steam isn't particularly good as a method of DRM to stop piracy (in order of ease of pirating from easiest to hardest, it's no DRM [indie games] -> Steam digitial -> Steam physical -> Other Physical -> Always online required).

What Steam does do well is get people that in the past have pirated games but as they get older and have less time to mess around with stuff find that just paying a few dollars for a game that is 50-75% off is just more convenient than pirating the game. Especially if you combine that with DMCA takedowns and e-mails sent to individual users when their torrenting of a pirated game is detected.

Regards,
SB
 
Ahhh! You're killing me with reality. I'd gladly pay $150 for SimCity5 with no always-online...but I don't get that option.

I definitely feel your pain man. But as the world has shown us time and time again. If you give people the opportunity to abuse something, then many (not all or even the majority) will gladly abuse it.

Remember the innocent days of the internet when there was no malware and companies could implement things (like automatic installation of browser plugins) without fear of some ahole using it to create a botnet? :D Hell, Quake or was it Quake 2, had a method to automatically install .DLLs that were required by mod packages. Carmack had to remove that ability eventually due to aholes abusing it to do things like wipe people's hard drives.

It'd be great if there was a compromise. And I agree that something like Steam's authenticate then go offline method is doable probably if their DRM wasn't so relatively weak.

Or better yet, something like what Spotify does with their premium service. You can download songs and use them offline. But you have to go online and re-verify that are allowed to play the songs once a month. I have no idea how strong their DRM is. Probably not as strong as Microsoft's. Last I checked it was 5 years and counting since anyone had been able to crack Microsoft's DRM for WMV files.

Speaking of that. That is one instance of consumers voting with their dollars that they prefer no-DRM to DRM. Although most VOD sites still use the WMV DRM. Unfortunately you can still bypass it by not cracking it and instead just using an application to copy the video as it is being played and re-encoding it.

Regards,
SB
 
Well we are doing the wrong thing by supporting games with crappy DRM, and you are doing a really bad job defending it, "if you only had one arm", hahaha :)

I can say that Simcity have lost one sale thanks to their always on, and i am certain that we will see a pirate version that can fullfill the needs of everyone that doesn't want to pay sooner or later.

We just have to keep our money in the pocket and hate the publishers that take away our rights when we are paying customers.

It still incenses me to find people like you who say "well the game wasn't like what I wanted so I don't feel like paying for it but I still want it so I'm gonna pirate it." What kind of god awful logic is that?
 
It still incenses me to find people like you who say "well the game wasn't like what I wanted so I don't feel like paying for it but I still want it so I'm gonna pirate it." What kind of god awful logic is that?

Not sure that's what was said.
How about he'll buy it then install the pirate ASAP? Me, sucker that I am for a new game, bought it anyway and will be playing cities xl and simcity4 for approx 56 en route hours in April thanks to greedy ass schmucks that won't let me play sc5. Should get in about 5 hrs with sc5 at some point this month. Great when programmers hate their biggest fans, ain't it?
 
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