DVD only on XB2 says inquirer

[Clashman]

I personally don't see where just having DVD will be a serious crutch for the XBox. The levels of problems we're seeing here with disc space filling up are nothing compared to the limitations CD's, not to mention cartridges, were having the previous generation. Most Gamecube games still fit onto one disc, with a handful spilling over into two. From CD's inception with the Sega CD and 3DO, it was not at all uncommon to see games spill over into 3, 4, 5, or even more disks. Cartridges were fundementally limited by not even being able to swing that.

Most games next generation will probably still fit easily on 1 disk, with a good portion of them fitting onto single-sided discs. At worst, you'll probably see a maybe 15 to 20% of games spill over on to two discs, and maybe a handful more make it to three. That's really not an unreasonable amount of swapping. Heck, maybe X-Box will even include a 3 disc rotating carousel to soothe everyone's minds.

 

[cthellis42]

Media Center-styled machines are feasable, both with a different ROM type and the likes of a hard drive add-on, but on the whole it won't add to the gaming experience much. Since the base unit (and must higher-selling one) will be on DVD, the developers aiming at that platform will aim for DVD. They might make a Special Edition release on HD-DVD with some improvements, but by and large you need the ROM in the base unit to really affect the gaming. To put it in a Media Center-type machine would be fine, but it would basically be restricted to media-playing abilities. (and lord knows how THAT will be received. The PSX could actually have done something if it didn't have an unbelievably stupid price. If anyone else tries, they'd best not fall into the same trap.)

As I said before, though, I don't really think Microsoft is going to pull a tactic with the Xbox 2 yet that would conflict with Media Center PC's. So what they'd probably have in a higher-priced Xbox 2 bundle would be whatever expansions they're making readily available for the Xbox 2 itself. The hard drive--in whatever its form... etc. I wouldn't put too much stock in a ROM switch.

 

[Inane_Dork]

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3136423&did=1

Gran Turismo 4 may be the most sizable PlayStation 2 game to date, according to another account from Sony's recent wrap-party event in Japan. Computer News reports that the game fills the entirety of a nine-gigabyte dual-layer DVD.

A few other PS2 games have used dual-layer DVDs -- the first was Monolith Soft's RPG Xenosaga Episode I -- but GT4 would be the first game to fill all that space. With more than 700 cars and more than 50 tracks promised in the finished game, however, it's not terribly surprising to see it pushing the limits of its medium.

At one point, Sony planned to release the game on two single-layer DVDs, each with a capacity of close to five gigabytes, but that's no longer the case.

GT4 will see release in Japan on December 3, arriving in North America about two weeks later. Expect a full report on the finished game soon.

This is from a good while back, but GT4 uses up the 9GB dual-layer DVD.

(Sorry if this has already been posted)

-Rich

I think it's new. Some guy I know claims the game is far less than 9 GBs, and that the rest of the disc is burnt with filler. I don't know if his claim is correct, though.

 

[Farid]

About the speed, comparing the max speed of BD-ROM/HD-DVD vs the max speed of DVD-ROM is not indicative of real-world scenario results, though. Since max speed (Especially DVD 16X) could only be attained at the "extreme periphery" of the disc.

In real world situation ( burst read, data seeking...), I personally expect a 2X BD-ROM to have very close performances compared to a 16X DVD-ROM.

 

[London Geezer]

Also, a 2X BDROM will be MUCH quieter than a 16X DVD drive.
It's all good, BDROM has been confirmed for PS3, so there's no point in arguing whether it's needed or not. Developers will find uses for the extra storage space. And If Xbox2 only has a DVD drive, it won't take much to stick more than one disc in the case if the game requires more than 9GB of data. In the end, 3 DVD9's are pretty much the same as one single layer BDROM disc (if i got it right, about 30GBs, right?). Not an issue, personally i liked changing discs in FF7 and MGS, it game me a chance to take a break, something i wouldn't do when i'm so much into the game that i want to play it more and more withut stopping for a second.
It's all good.

 

[max-pain]

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3136423&did=1

Gran Turismo 4 may be the most sizable PlayStation 2 game to date, according to another account from Sony's recent wrap-party event in Japan. Computer News reports that the game fills the entirety of a nine-gigabyte dual-layer DVD.

A few other PS2 games have used dual-layer DVDs -- the first was Monolith Soft's RPG Xenosaga Episode I -- but GT4 would be the first game to fill all that space. With more than 700 cars and more than 50 tracks promised in the finished game, however, it's not terribly surprising to see it pushing the limits of its medium.

At one point, Sony planned to release the game on two single-layer DVDs, each with a capacity of close to five gigabytes, but that's no longer the case.

GT4 will see release in Japan on December 3, arriving in North America about two weeks later. Expect a full report on the finished game soon.

This is from a good while back, but GT4 uses up the 9GB dual-layer DVD.

(Sorry if this has already been posted)

-Rich

I think it's new. Some guy I know claims the game is far less than 9 GBs, and that the rest of the disc is burnt with filler. I don't know if his claim is correct, though.

GT4 - Asian Chinese version (SCAJ-30007):
The File Size of the ISO is 5.70 GB (6,122,242,048 bytes)

 

[AzBat]

The first Toshiba DVD player seems to have been announced in September, 1996 and gone on sale in November in Japan. I don't think it would have made it across the water until 1Q 1997. (I know the SD-3006 was out in March. Not sure if that was the first model available, though. Other sources to mention its initial "spring launch" though, so I believe the SD-2006 was also launched then.)

I worked at Creative Labs during the launch of DVD. We had the first DVD-ROM drive available. It was launched with other DVD players at Academy Awards(Oscars) in March 1997. Only 7 cities or so were the only markets that had them. Interesting enough Tulsa, OK(about an hour's drive from where I lived) was one of them. I believe the nationwide launch of DVD was in July of that same year.

Tommy McClain

 

[AzBat]

Your assuming the Xenon drive is gonna be an off the shelf DVD-Rom. Im expecting a proprietary drive similar to Dreamcast GD-ROM or Gamecube. Im sure there will be enough space though. Im more worried about speed and reliability. (what was MS thinking with the Thomson)

I"m also starting to have my doubts that HD-DVD or BluRay will be the storage medium for Xbox 2 games. A proprietary DVD-type drive and format, similar to Dreamcast, could make business sense considering the lower cost and the anti-hacker features it might be able to provide.

I persoanlly don't think HD-DVD/Blue-Ray is gonna sell consoles like DVD sold the ps2. Standard DVD will rule until 80% of households have HDTV.

I agree that it's starting to look like that.

I think 9 gigs would be more than enough especially if MS uses some type of realtime-lossless compression. It wouldn't be hard to implement and would even speed up games that do streaming from the media like gta3:sa and halo2. (put that tri -core cpu to work somehow or implement a hardware solution )

Yeah, 9gb is a lot of space for games and should be sufficient early in the life of Xbox 2. I'm just worried about the end of it's life. Maybe the procedural capabilities of the CPU and GPU can alleviate some of those problems?

Tommy McClain

 

[ban25]

It's worth considering the pause required when changing layers. This can be disruptive in a game and impose certain restrictions about what can or can't be placed on the second layer. In Champions of Norrath, for instance, the game's VA lagged horribly because it was stored on the second layer. To move to a single layer in the sequel required some significant cuts, including removal of the game's randomly generated levels.

I am interested... What will developers be doing in the next 4 years that *requires* over 9GB of space?

In Gran Turismo, more cars, more circuits, more HD textures, more HD movies, more music

Besides, 12x/16x DVD drives can be noisy.

Ok. But will it require more than 9GB? 9GB is a lot of space. To play devils advocate:

1) How many games are going to use more than 4GB? More than 9GB?

2) Will developers be able to afford to spend the time and money to develop games that take up 9GB+ on next gen hardware? Increased production + increased content = development costs shooting through the roof.

3) Is there something fundamentally "new" that will require more space (e.g. CDs were often filled with FMV which took up a lot of space; note that with extreme effort many N64 games fit on very small ROMs and compared quite well to a medium with 100x the storage).

4) Will game quality suffer from being limited to 9GB?

5) Is the 9GB such a significant hurdle that using multiple disks will be an attractive alternative?

Just playing devils advocate. I think BR and HD-DVD are great technologies and I am excited about them. The BR exclusives and larger space give it an advantage over HD-DVD (but who knows how this will end). But my enthusiasm as a tech head it tempered with a reality check. I already listed some reasons why I do not think BR or HD-DVD are in a position to do what DVD did, but they are none the less GREAT technology and good for consumers. But I am not as confident that next gen consoles need either, or that they offer a benefit. I could be wrong... I could be dead wrong at that. So either time, or someone on the forum, will prove me wrong

Would still like to hear about games that could exceed 9GB. GT is a good example of a game that could (if it exceeded 9GB think of how many cards and tracks that is!!! That would be reason enough right there to get a PS3). Any others? And no, movie games do not count

 

[Spidermate]

Until these things are mass produced by publishers, all that is mere unproven boasting by the BR consortium pimping it's own format. Proof will be in the pudding later. This is all kind of moot, since it costs small fraction of a dallar to press DVD now for pubs.

My point, however, had to do with the fact that a dev/pub will have to invest in new equipement to press BR/HD-DVD discs. That's added cost.

HD-DVD's hardware is cheaper than Blu Ray :? How would this be a problem for them?

Huh? what are you talking about?

Anyways, BR consortium's offical BR web site still says 26MBits per second for 1X.

Show me the site. I hope this info isn't dated neither.

What are you going on about? I'm talking about the fact that no one has started selling a HD-DVD nor a BR player for Joe consumer yet! If I'm wrong, please link me to a place that sells a player. I'd like to buy one!

I'm not sure if you are talking about the average consumer or just someone in particular. But, I can tell you that Blu Ray is already, and has been for years, in the hands of consumers over in Japan.

None of them has anything to do with the discussion at hand.

Could it be that you forgot what it was that we were discussing?

Let me refreash you memeory:

3. BR or HD-DVD drive will drive up (pun intended) the cost of the machine over a DVD drive. I'd much rather have the same $$ that might go into a HD-DVD go into Xenon having more RAM (or something else more meaningful to the gaming experience). Thus choice of DVD drive is again possibley better for the gaming experience.

What's that esoteric info have to do with the fact that DVD launched way back in 1995? You are just trying to veer away the discussion for no reason.

um... It was YOU who brought up the format being too expensive for the consoles even after I stated that this very same procedured happened years ago when the first DVD launched in a console along with Sony developing a new head for backwards compatibility.

What does it have to do with 95? I was hoping you could tell me. Afterall, you were the one to chew apart this quote with the following response:

"3. First of all, Blu Ray, in relation to Sony, is very old technology.It has been out for years now. The difference is it has been modified to suit not just it's own maket, but the entire market as well, which is the reason we are hearing so much about it now.

Secondly, the Blu Ray technology going into the PS3 will only be at its bare minimum. In other words, it will not come bundled with a burner which was mentioned of the Blu Ray format in one of the press releases. Not only that, but Sony is one of the main backers behind Blu Ray. This by itself will knock the price down tremendously.

BTW, do anyone remember when Sony first announced their PS2 supporting DVD just after a fews months before they found a way of making the format backwards compatible with CDs? It's no different here."





The Toshiba DVD player my friend bought back in 1995 could play CDs fine. I think you are plain old confused about the facts.

EA is far from a good example to base what the industry as whole aims for. For EA, securing exclusive rights to NFL just to stamp out a competitor is just business as usual. EA is hardly a normal gaming dev/pub citizen. They are as normal as gaming dev as Micheal Jackson is to us.

So, are you saying flexibility won't be the answer?

More improtant fact to consider is just how many of those console are being used as a main/only DVD player? Far from the majority.

With a DVD player priced at about $30 to $40 now, I'm not surprised. We all know that DVD was one of the feaures that sold the second console and likely the Xbox, too. If the format is implemented into a console, it will saturate the market automatically. Once the market experience the difference, more users will follow. These consoles are nothing more than trojans built to help monopolize other areas.

 

[Spidermate]

Inane, this is not current genenerion software we are discussing here. It's next-gen that seems to be the problem. Why do you think CDs are obsolete in relation to current gen consoles comapred to last-gen? If we are already tapping the mark of dual layer disc with a few titles of this gen, in theory, that mark will be completely filled by next-gen, no doubt.

You're not listening. I'm talking about the most recent PC games which should serve well as a baseline for game size. So how big are recent PC games? I think HL2 is around 4 GB. UT2k4 is in the same area.

The point being, most next-gen games would fit on a DVD9. You can cite specific examples of games that will not fit, true. But for every one of those, there are probably 15 that would fit with ample room to spare.

Cost may be an issue for Microsoft since their are licenses involved. I just think that with their fundings and the stiff competition they wouldn't allow something like this to slip through their fingers. But, I do agree with you that Micorosoft could be taking a risk by choosing a format that has not yet proven itself in the market.

Slip through their fingers? What? What revenue does MS hope to get through HD-DVD that they cannot get through DVD?

It would be irresponsible of MS to put a first-generation HD-DVD drive in the X2. Totally unproven, prone to errors, really high cost, etc. You can argue virtues all day long, but it remains that going with first-generation HD-DVD drives is a bad idea.

Ok, you're losing me. Let me see if i can explan it a little simplier....

The PlayStation1 started off with CDs as well as PC games. In the very end of their life cycles, certain games began filling the entire disc. By the time the PS2 and Xbox rolled around, they took over where the last consoles had left off. In the middle of their life cycles, they began filling the entire disc with all of their titles.

Ok, now we are facing a new generation. Apply the above to next-generation. That's the point I am trying to make.

As to your last statement, yes, that could be the case. I agree. But, it's not like they are looking to enter the DVD market. They only need software to support their games. It's like Beta Max; although the format is dead, it is still being supported by smaller other companies. They don't have to support the format straight out of the box like the PlayStation. Just supporting it would be fine. At least the others won't have this advantage at their disposal. To give up on it entirely may be a bad move.

 

[Inane_Dork]

By the time the PS2 and Xbox rolled around, they took over where the last consoles had left off. In the middle of their life cycles, they began filling the entire disc with all of their titles.

But that's not the case at all. Most titles don't push the size barrier at all.

Ok, now we are facing a new generation. Apply the above to next-generation. That's the point I am trying to make.

I know your argument. It lacks for the point I listed above. My point about current PC games seems reasonable to me. If you find a flaw with it, let me know.

But, it's not like they are looking to enter the DVD market. They only need software to support their games.

If the format goes under, prices will be even worse. Yes, all they truly need it to do is hold data and the rest is optional. But on the other hand, they would really like it to be inexpensive, and HD-DVD only stands a chance at being that way years down the line.

To give up on it entirely may be a bad move.

I agree. Later on, when the victor emerges, they could have a version with an new drive.

 

[Phil]

Inane_Dork & Co.

I think you are missing some of the more important aspects a medium with more space brings in:

(1)
Next generation isn't launching today. It's at the very earliest to be expected at the end of this year. Why take PC benchmarks off today that not only target the highest end graphics cards? Is it that hard to imagine that just maybe, consoles that are expected to last around 5 years or even more just *might* require more than what games are pushing today? If we are to expect a tenfold improvement in over all graphics to gameplay, why is it hard to believe that size demands might rise as well? The point isn't simply "it's necessary" - the point is, it's nice to have the freedom of knowing there's space for more - more that in the end will benefit the consumer one way or the other by simply giving developers the freedom and option. Technically, even games on CDs would be feasable this generation or even next generation - all depends on what you want to see. Is it worth it though if better is available? What happened to pushing the envelope?

(2)
While size may never be utilized to the fullest, more space will give developers the option to fill the remaining space with duplicate data that can be streamed in blocks into main memory. Redundant blocks of data can maximize loading efficiancy - a technic already used in various console titles.

(3)
Even if the space used on a BR or HD-DVD could fit on a dual layer DVD - while the DVD would be maxed out and its transfer speeds would vary depending on which lain, a BR or HD-DVD could have it's data on the layers giving it the best performance and thus, giving it an overall realworld advantage in access speeds (of course, depending on how close the peak transfer speeds are/drive speed)

(4)
Quite frankly, the 24x CD-ROM speed of the PS2 is freaking annoying. Not sure how noisy a 16x DVD drive would be, but I certainly think a 2x/4x HD-DVD / BR drive will be more quiet.

(5)
Next generation drive could give consumers added value by being able to use its drive as a movie player. An extra by all means, but convinient none the less.

(6)
Even from a technological standpoint, a next generation drive is always going to make a better impression compared to a dvd-drive that may be perceived as "out dated" by consumers, knowing that the PS3 will have a new high tech format. Hype war all going for Sony in this aspect.

 

[Clashman]

The PlayStation1 started off with CDs as well as PC games. In the very end of their life cycles, certain games began filling the entire disc. By the time the PS2 and Xbox rolled around, they took over where the last consoles had left off. In the middle of their life cycles, they began filling the entire disc with all of their titles.

Ok, now we are facing a new generation. Apply the above to next-generation. That's the point I am trying to make.

In fairness, by the time PS1 rolled out, CD Roms would have been mainstream products in most computers for 2 or 3 years already. CD as a format had been existence for over a decade. When PS2 came out, DVD players had already been out for a number of years, and the market for DVD's were already there, growing, and it was an attractive option that most consumers were looking forward to getting sometime in the relatively near future. I don't think the same can be said with HD DVD or Blue Ray right now, nor by the time the next gen consoles launch.

 

[Spidermate]

The PlayStation1 started off with CDs as well as PC games. In the very end of their life cycles, certain games began filling the entire disc. By the time the PS2 and Xbox rolled around, they took over where the last consoles had left off. In the middle of their life cycles, they began filling the entire disc with all of their titles.

Ok, now we are facing a new generation. Apply the above to next-generation. That's the point I am trying to make.

In fairness, by the time PS1 rolled out, CD Roms would have been mainstream products in most computers for 2 or 3 years already. CD as a format had been existence for over a decade. When PS2 came out, DVD players had already been out for a number of years, and the market for DVD's were already there, growing, and it was an attractive option that most consumers were looking forward to getting sometime in the relatively near future. I don't think the same can be said with HD DVD or Blue Ray right now, nor by the time the next gen consoles launch.

Maybe not, but that's not the main concern right now, the developers are, though. That's what i keep trying to point out. I don't think this format will be aimed at the comsumer the way DVD was (meaning, consumers won't be as eager to rush out for this format). I believe it's mainly for the developers. Pushing the format across the market and into more homes, however, would be the purpose for the console because THAT's going to sell regardless. If the format is available to the consumer, they will automatically have access to its library, which means better marketing to the consumer as well as giving them more experience with the format, and I believe that's the goal both Toshiba and Sony are aiming for.

 

[Inane_Dork]

Next generation isn't launching today. It's at the very earliest to be expected at the end of this year. Why take PC benchmarks off today that not only target the highest end graphics cards? Is it that hard to imagine that just maybe, consoles that are expected to last around 5 years or even more just *might* require more than what games are pushing today?

If I have to point out I said "baseline" again, I'm gonna puke.
For the love. Read.

The point isn't simply "it's necessary" - the point is, it's nice to have the freedom of knowing there's space for more - more that in the end will benefit the consumer one way or the other by simply giving developers the freedom and option.

CD, DVD, HD-DVD or BD, there's always room for more.

While size may never be utilized to the fullest, more space will give developers the option to fill the remaining space with duplicate data that can be streamed in blocks into main memory. Redundant blocks of data can maximize loading efficiancy - a technic already used in various console titles.

Agreed, but not too effectual.

Even if the space used on a BR or HD-DVD could fit on a dual layer DVD - while the DVD would be maxed out and its transfer speeds would vary depending on which lain, a BR or HD-DVD could have it's data on the layers giving it the best performance and thus, giving it an overall realworld advantage in access speeds (of course, depending on how close the peak transfer speeds are/drive speed)

Also agreed, but also not too effectual.

Quite frankly, the 24x CD-ROM speed of the PS2 is freaking annoying. Not sure how noisy a 16x DVD drive would be, but I certainly think a 2x/4x HD-DVD / BR drive will be more quiet.

Agreed once more.

Next generation drive could give consumers added value by being able to use its drive as a movie player. An extra by all means, but convinient none the less.

A DVD drive will make the X2 capable of playing movies, too.

Even from a technological standpoint, a next generation drive is always going to make a better impression compared to a dvd-drive that may be perceived as "out dated" by consumers, knowing that the PS3 will have a new high tech format. Hype war all going for Sony in this aspect.

True for some cases, I agree. However, did anyone buy an Xbox over a GC because the Xbox has 5x the disc space? It's not an exact parallel, but it's close.


BD is a "bet the farm" project for Sony. That's why they're putting it in the PS3. You use your strengths to empower your other projects (like Media Player and Windows). MS, on the other hand, has no reason to "bet the farm" on any optical media. They gain nothing by bending over backwards to ensure its survival.

Instead, look for increased Windows <-> Xbox functionality, as Longhorn is a "bet the farm" project for MS.

 

[archie4oz]

One minor gotcha with the 16X DVD speeds... The 172mbps is only achieved on the outermost tracks... The inside tracks (where DVDs and CDs typically start reading from) is typically around 72mbps (and this is for the fastest drives on the market).

Granted the platforms will likely have data layout optimized to be layed out on the outer tracks of the disc to optimize throughput (this is been the case since the PSOne).

One should also keep in mind that the transfer rates specified for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are the minimum necessary sustainable transfer rates that a drive and media must be able to operate. There's nothing stopping Sony or Microsoft from putting in a faster spec'd ROM drive other physically building the drive (perhaps a small roadblock for MS), and the medium itself (to use Blu-Ray as an example, there's already BD-R/RE/ROM media today (either via limited availability, or in prototype phase) capable of handling 4x speeds).

That all being said, I don't see any problem sticking with the DVD medium ...

 

[pahcman]

If sony can get BR without much hit to gamers and developers, all for it. As i said, DVD BR HD are transparent to gamers.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

(1)
Next generation isn't launching today. It's at the very earliest to be expected at the end of this year. Why take PC benchmarks off today that not only target the highest end graphics cards? Is it that hard to imagine that just maybe, consoles that are expected to last around 5 years or even more just *might* require more than what games are pushing today?

Using PC as a baseline, couldn't we compare historically? When PS2 launched, how many PC games were DVD based compared with CD based?

 

[cthellis42]

Using PC as a baseline, couldn't we compare historically? When PS2 launched, how many PC games were DVD based compared with CD based?

None. Of course, how many PC games stream off their optical ROM contents anymore? How many would have been simply easier to stick on a DVD? How many would have been just plain better off and cheaper for publishers and when?

ROM choice is for a lifespan in consoles, and it's one major resource for them. In PC's, all it is is the transport medium to install a game, they are never forced to use one over another, and adoption can be as gradual as they want. 'tain't really a good comparison.