Will case size limit Revolution's processing capability?

[randycat99]

The mere fact that you need fan(s) that will need finite electrical input to drive the desired flowrate, would seem to disagree that "drag" is negligible. Otherwise, you could power the fans to speed once, and then cut the power, as the "perpetual motion flow" continues forever and ever...which we most certainly know will not be the case, "smart" design or not.

Grasping for straws...

I'd say that is a pretty accurate report of your status, right now. Your point fails, as a finite pressure loss is in effect, and a small, low rpm fan will not deliver anywhere near its maximum flow in the system you describe.

"Drag" or pressure loss is an inherent effect from very low air velocities to high velocities, as well as simply being exponentially related. Fans aren't exactly "positive displacement" kind of devices, either. So they, indeed, do need to work to overcome even mild pressure losses in the overal flowpath, "smart" design or not. It's not like these are superchargers that could blow the intake manifold off an engine block.

If drag is say less than 5% for the total system then it won't matter relative to the other 95%.

...but then if your system won't fall in line with these arbitrary specs, the point is pretty irrelevant.

Uh no I'm not implying that, but thanks for telling me what I'm implying. Go back and reread jvd's post about HSF vs water or liquid metal cooling if you have a memory problem.

See that folks? The crazy-Ivan demonstrated most skillfully by pce. Imply, imply, imply, then turn around and say you aren't implying at all. Once smoke clears, reinitiate implying as if nothing ever happened...

It's a hypothetical system just like the other systems you brought forth. Difference is it's not using some Xbox as the ultimate example of cooling efficiency. Maybe you should look at the size of Xbox's motherboard if you don't have a clue. Best of best.....RIIIIIIGGGHHHHTTT!!!!

...and hence comes the point where your entire stance makes its final meltdown (it's hardly an effective argument if you don't even understand what you are arguing against). You think I was referring to XB as an example of "best of" cooling efficiency??? Who needs to go back an reread now?... You don't even correctly understand the details of the stance your opponent is arguing...or do you just assume that because someone disagrees with you, their viewpoints must then be in favor of everything you oppose? That would seem to be the only way you can repeatedly refer to XB as a less than ideal solution, and then come to the notion that someone else must think it is the "best of" solution.

I guess we should artificially restrict the computing architectures to the same design too to futily prove our point. Hey why not just pretend the only option is to transplant the Xbox's innards into a GCN?

...perhaps, in your black-and-white world. Fortunately, the real world is able to account for "more than one way to skin a cat" scenarios. Did you even understand the point of the XB innards in a GC case example, or do you just knee-jerk react to anything that sounds unusual to you? I'm guessing you didn't get the point.

I'm sorry but last time I checked this is the realworld where everything is NOT created equal.

...but they all pay equal homage to physics, which it seems you are trying to cheat. I'm guessing that your remark underscores your opinion that N has some overwhelming, unbeatable edge in technical execution over all other competitors in this industry. You are certainly free to have this opinion, but you know what they say about "opinions"...

 

[Teasy]

Does anybody have pics of the inside of the X360?

 

[PC-Engine]

I'd say that is a pretty accurate report of your status, right now. Your point fails, as a finite pressure loss is in effect, and a small, low rpm fan will not deliver anywhere near its maximum flow in the system you describe.

Uh....yeah....right....you say a lot of things and 99% of it is BS well maybe not in your world where flipping a coin decides CFM.

...but then if your system won't fall in line with these arbitrary specs, the point is pretty irrelevant.

Well if YOU designed it then yeah it likely would not be a smart design and result in iffy performance and iffy cooling efficiency.

See that folks? The crazy-Ivan demonstrated most skillfully by pce. Imply, imply, imply, then turn around and say you aren't implying at all. Once smoke clears, reinitiate implying as if nothing ever happened...

Heh it's not my problem you don't get it. Only a fool would use an inefficient HSF to build an even more inefficient system cooler...oh wait make that heater.

...and hence comes the point where your entire stance makes its final meltdown (it's hardly an effective argument if you don't even understand what you are arguing against). You think I was referring to XB as an example of "best of" cooling efficiency??? Who needs to go back an reread now?... You don't even correctly understand the details of the stance your opponent is arguing...or do you just assume that because someone disagrees with you, their viewpoints must then be in favor of everything you oppose? That would seem to be the only way you can repeatedly refer to XB as a less than ideal solution, and then come to the notion that someone else must think it is the "best of" solution.

Your argument or what's left of it is so distorted it's not even worth debating.

...perhaps, in your black-and-white world. Fortunately, the real world is able to account for "more than one way to skin a cat" scenarios. Did you even understand the point of the XB innards in a GC case example, or do you just knee-jerk react to anything that sounds unusual to you? I'm guessing you didn't get the point.

Actually you are right, Yugos do exist. So yes there are many ways to build a car/product. Design wisely.

...but they all pay equal homage to physics, which it seems you are trying to cheat. I'm guessing that your remark underscores your opinion that N has some overwhelming, unbeatable edge in technical execution over all other competitors in this industry. You are certainly free to have this opinion, but you know what they say about "opinions"...

Ahahaa the good old physics retort. Nice try. Get back to me when a GCN magically transforms ifself into a dumb HSF as a result of a coin toss. Yes even a Yugo has to obey the same laws of physics.

No it can't be, impossible, not fair! Nintendo can only use the same technology as the competition!!.


Hey Randycat99, take a look at this picture. What does it tell you?

 

[randycat99]

...and all that's left of pce and his ill-faited discussion point are the puerile retorts and utterly nonsensical replies. It's really rather embarrassing to watch. Let's just call it quits already before you really say something you shouldn't...

Hey Randycat99, take a look at this picture. What does it tell you?

...that an XB has unfortunately been taken hostage somewhere in Iraq, and the ransom is for MS to pull out all Windows support from the Coalition, or else?...

(sorry, folks, for the joke in poor taste- I just couldn't resist, because that is what the pix look like to me, if you must ask...I mean loogad'em, he's handling the XB guts like it means nothing, just to mock us! Bastards!!!)

 

[PC-Engine]

...and all that's left of pce and his ill-faited discussion point are the puerile retorts and utterly nonsensical replies. It's really rather embarrassing to watch. Let's just call it quits already before you really say something you shouldn't...

Answer the question...if you dare.

Which question you say? Wow you have a very selective memory. Here is the question again.

Hey Randycat99, take a look at this picture. What does it tell you?

 

[Bobbler]

This entire topic is rather silly. Nintendo isn't basing their hardware design around the case, the case design is based around the hardware.

Will case size limit Revolution's processing capability? No... Not in the way the question is asked. Nintendo is going to get everything they want.
Will Revolution's processing capability limit case size? Yes... They would have made it smaller if they could, the CPU/GPU will limit how small the case can be.

Nintendo is putting as much 'processing capability' as they want in the box, the size will be the thing that changes. Nintendo isn't that concerned with aesthetics that they'd actually base their entire console around what they can fit into a tiny box -- You design the hardware first, container second.

 

[PC-Engine]

(sorry, folks, for the joke in poor taste- I just couldn't resist, because that is what the pix look like to me, if you must ask...I mean loogad'em, he's handling the XB guts like it means nothing, just to mock us! Bastards!!!)

Nice dodge.

You know what that picture tells me? It tells me MS hired Randycat99 to design Xbox360's cooling system

 

[Ty]

I say again, my XBox works fine and it doesn't seem (to me at least) to be ANY louder than my GCN.

Smart, dumb, whatever, does it make a difference "if it works"? The cooling for any system obviously matches the need of the system otherwise they would simply not work.

So what is the point? Could Revolution use liquid cooling? Sure. Would it help them close the performance gap? Maybe. Maybe it wouldn't. Maybe nothing can. Watts are watts, and they still need to be dissipated in whatever cooling solution the system is using.

 

[PC-Engine]

I say again, my XBox works fine and it doesn't seem (to me at least) to be ANY louder than my GCN.

Smart, dumb, whatever, does it make a difference "if it works"? The cooling for any system obviously matches the need of the system otherwise they would simply not work.

That is the point though. Some people are saying Xbox is bigger than GCN because it runs hotter. Those same people are claiming the same for Xbox360 vs REV. I mean if MS could design Xbox360 into the size of the REV case why wouldn't they? Afterall more processing power = more heat = bigger case needed right? Riiiiiight

Maybe the Xbox runs hotter than the GCN then again maybe it doesn't. Who's to say? We don't have the numbers so there's no point in arguing it. Maybe the case size has NOTHING to do with heat and everything to do with motherboard size? Same can be said of Xbox360. Just because the case is bigger than REV doesn't mean it needs that big case for cooling. If Xbox and Xbox360's case size have nothing to do with a need for sufficient cooling then what does that say? Well it simply says heat is not dictating that specific case size but something else indeed is. If that's the case then technically MS could make the case even smaller with respect to heat dissipation. If MS could make the case even smaller then surely Nintendo could also make a comparable sized case and pack in a comparable amount of computing power.

Watts are watts, and they still need to be dissipated in whatever cooling solution the system is using.

Well sure it is nobody was arguing that, but again if you go back and look at the example jvd brought to the table, liquid cooling DOES allows higher total cooling efficency due to the fact you can mount the HSF remotely. In a non liquid type system you would likely need more fans or a stronger fan or a bigger heatsink or various combinations of the three just to try and match the efficiency of the liquid system. That in turn adds more noise and/or take up more case volume.

As for best of best that's just a strawman argument that doesn't apply in this comparison since we don't know if Xbox and Xbox360 is the best example of cooling efficiency or not. Most likely it has nothing to do with case size in this situation.

 

[oli2]

I don't get your point Randycat...

Is your point saying that Nintendo is doomed performance spec side ?
It reminds me some folks here a few years ago, when first Cell informations arose, who were barking here and there "whatever Microsoft and Nintendo use as a processor, they're doomed 'cause nothing can surpass the Cell".

It was a pain convincing them (not sure if it succeeded) that Sony does not have monopoly on good ideas and/or money to push them.

I completely agree with what bobbler said :

This entire topic is rather silly. Nintendo isn't basing their hardware design around the case, the case design is based around the hardware.

Will case size limit Revolution's processing capability? No... Not in the way the question is asked. Nintendo is going to get everything they want.
Will Revolution's processing capability limit case size? Yes... They would have made it smaller if they could, the CPU/GPU will limit how small the case can be.

Nintendo is putting as much 'processing capability' as they want in the box, the size will be the thing that changes. Nintendo isn't that concerned with aesthetics that they'd actually base their entire console around what they can fit into a tiny box -- You design the hardware first, container second.

Nintendo already succeeded to deliver a more balanced system in a tinyer box this gen (with actually some good ideas reused for example in X360) for probably a lower cost.

What is annoying me in your reasonning is that passive cooling on GT 6600 cannot work either ...

 

[oli2]

I say again, my XBox works fine and it doesn't seem (to me at least) to be ANY louder than my GCN.

To me, my Xbox was a bit louder than my GCN.

 

[London Geezer]

Oh no they're gonna decapitate it!

 

[oli2]

Oh no they're gonna decapitate it!

??

 

[scificube]

Here's my problem with all of this.

Under full load system A will output the same amount of heat as system B *for the most part*

I say this primarily with respect to the X360 and the Rev. I say this with some assumptions. They use the same tech partners. This time around both console makers are making tweaked machines instead of one using of the shelf parts. I do not assume that Nintendo gotten a hold of parts that are significantly more efficient with respect to the heat produces/processing power available ratio. I make the afore mentioned assumption because arstechnia like I did months ago have concluded that the X360's PPEs are very akin to Cells with the exception of the VMX units and with this being true it would seem most likely Nintendo is also getting a variant of the PPE core. This reduces cost for both IBM and in turn their other customer Nintendo with respect to R&D etc. Now if Nintendo uses more complex cores than the PPEs we've seen then the tranny count just goes up and the chip gets hotter under full load. If Nintendo goes with a less complex chip then the tranny count goes down and less heat is produces but concurrently processing power *should* be reduced as well. When I say complex i am referring to things such as the instruction window that has been stripped from each core unit of the PPE we see. I do not see Nintendo creating a chip with greater complexity per core so that they could have robust ILP and TLP at the same time. The chip would be huge, very expensive and produce allot of heat under full load. Nintendo could go with even less complexity if possible in order to further increase TLP but again I do not see how this won't hurt AI, physics, etc even more than the X360 and the Cell chip does so IMO processing power is likely to be reduced in this respect if not in the overall. (Greater TLP could still aid visual more if greater TLP can be achieved and be useful...kinda contentious I know) I expect the GPU to be right in line with the afore mentioned thinking. If is not similar in architectural design which is quite plausible in not using unified shader or whatever I still believe that in any case it is likely to be just as hot if it is just as capable or more capable.

That was long. I don't see where I'm making an wild guesses here, but if I am I'd love for someone to prove me wrong. (I'd actually love to be proven wrong...check my ID it's a big hint)

To keep things simple I will reiterate that I feel system A will be just as hot as system B under full load if both systems have equal or near equal processing powers and are using for most intents and purposes the same HW.

It is fair to say that MS may have wasted some space in trying to get a look for the X360 but it seems most unlikely this is to some extreme. There are still relatively large heat sinks being used and plenty of air space. I assume for this is so for good reason.

Now let's take a look at what the Rev should be like. It's going to be thinner at least than 3 DVD cases and since it's cases is claimed to be smaller than what was shown at E3 then it is fair to say it will be no longer than that case Iwata held in his hands. It may be longer but I expect to no significant degree. This case will house a DVD slot drive, 4 legacy GCN controller ports, 512MB of flash memory, A CPU, A GPU/VPU, mobo, system ram, video/audio connectors, a wifi receiver for the Revs controllers etc and some for of active cooling for the both the GPU/VPU and CPU. I expect the PSU will be external. I mentioned some things that normally are ignored but with the confined space we're probably looking at...everything is off significance.

Now liquid metal cooling still needs a fan and resevouir somewhere and blowing fairly strong if it to cool both the CPU and the GPU/VPU. This is true of any liquid cooling solution. This would seem to require the least amount of space and be most efficient yet still this is by far the most expensive solution to the thermal problem. Cost is significant. To use an airflow system...there must be room for good airflow or airflow itself must be pipelined for at least the major thermal offenders. This would be the cheapest but least efficient method and this would affect just how much you could crack up your HW. A combination lies somewhere in the middle of this cost to performance comparison.

Now...

Nintendo wants:

Smaller, cheaper, quieter

Liquid metal cooling will not be cheap especially as compared to other cooling methods.

Parts the provide the same level of processing power or comparable processing power of the PS3/X360's CPU and GPU while at the same time producing significantly less heat would not be cheap especially as compared to the competitions solutions. This is what would be required if liquid cooling was trying to be avoided.

If both liquid cooling and parts that produced less heat were both avoided then the system is going to get louder as fans will be a blowing HARD!

Something must give IMO. IMO it will be processing power itself. It is what makes the most sense given many of Iwata's and Miyamoto's statements. This is in line with walking, "their own path." This is line with their philosophies over the years. I could even argue that this is in line with them NEVER operating at a loss with respect to selling HW with little effort.

I am at a loss here. I do not see what others are seeing. If I am lost please help me to understand.

 

[hcpizzi]

What about what this guy claims?

http://forums.g4tv.com/messageview....403677&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE=&STARTPAGE=13

He seems to be legit. What do you think?

 

[Ooh-videogames]

Here's my problem with all of this.

Under full load system A will output the same amount of heat as system B *for the most part*

I say this primarily with respect to the X360 and the Rev. I say this with some assumptions. They use the same tech partners. This time around both console makers are making tweaked machines instead of one using of the shelf parts. I do not assume that Nintendo gotten a hold of parts that are significantly more efficient with respect to the heat produces/processing power available ratio. I make the afore mentioned assumption because arstechnia like I did months ago have concluded that the X360's PPEs are very akin to Cells with the exception of the VMX units and with this being true it would seem most likely Nintendo is also getting a variant of the PPE core. This reduces cost for both IBM and in turn their other customer Nintendo with respect to R&D etc. Now if Nintendo uses more complex cores than the PPEs we've seen then the tranny count just goes up and the chip gets hotter under full load. If Nintendo goes with a less complex chip then the tranny count goes down and less heat is produces but concurrently processing power *should* be reduced as well. When I say complex i am referring to things such as the instruction window that has been stripped from each core unit of the PPE we see. I do not see Nintendo creating a chip with greater complexity per core so that they could have robust ILP and TLP at the same time. The chip would be huge, very expensive and produce allot of heat under full load. Nintendo could go with even less complexity if possible in order to further increase TLP but again I do not see how this won't hurt AI, physics, etc even more than the X360 and the Cell chip does so IMO processing power is likely to be reduced in this respect if not in the overall. (Greater TLP could still aid visual more if greater TLP can be achieved and be useful...kinda contentious I know) I expect the GPU to be right in line with the afore mentioned thinking. If is not similar in architectural design which is quite plausible in not using unified shader or whatever I still believe that in any case it is likely to be just as hot if it is just as capable or more capable.

That was long. I don't see where I'm making an wild guesses here, but if I am I'd love for someone to prove me wrong. (I'd actually love to be proven wrong...check my ID it's a big hint)

To keep things simple I will reiterate that I feel system A will be just as hot as system B under full load if both systems have equal or near equal processing powers and are using for most intents and purposes the same HW.

It is fair to say that MS may have wasted some space in trying to get a look for the X360 but it seems most unlikely this is to some extreme. There are still relatively large heat sinks being used and plenty of air space. I assume for this is so for good reason.

Now let's take a look at what the Rev should be like. It's going to be thinner at least than 3 DVD cases and since it's cases is claimed to be smaller than what was shown at E3 then it is fair to say it will be no longer than that case Iwata held in his hands. It may be longer but I expect to no significant degree. This case will house a DVD slot drive, 4 legacy GCN controller ports, 512MB of flash memory, A CPU, A GPU/VPU, mobo, system ram, video/audio connectors, a wifi receiver for the Revs controllers etc and some for of active cooling for the both the GPU/VPU and CPU. I expect the PSU will be external. I mentioned some things that normally are ignored but with the confined space we're probably looking at...everything is off significance.

Now liquid metal cooling still needs a fan and resevouir somewhere and blowing fairly strong if it to cool both the CPU and the GPU/VPU. This is true of any liquid cooling solution. This would seem to require the least amount of space and be most efficient yet still this is by far the most expensive solution to the thermal problem. Cost is significant. To use an airflow system...there must be room for good airflow or airflow itself must be pipelined for at least the major thermal offenders. This would be the cheapest but least efficient method and this would affect just how much you could crack up your HW. A combination lies somewhere in the middle of this cost to performance comparison.

Now...

Nintendo wants:

Smaller, cheaper, quieter

Liquid metal cooling will not be cheap especially as compared to other cooling methods.

Parts the provide the same level of processing power or comparable processing power of the PS3/X360's CPU and GPU while at the same time producing significantly less heat would not be cheap especially as compared to the competitions solutions. This is what would be required if liquid cooling was trying to be avoided.

If both liquid cooling and parts that produced less heat were both avoided then the system is going to get louder as fans will be a blowing HARD!

Something must give IMO. IMO it will be processing power itself. It is what makes the most sense given many of Iwata's and Miyamoto's statements. This is in line with walking, "their own path." This is line with their philosophies over the years. I could even argue that this is in line with them NEVER operating at a loss with respect to selling HW with little effort.

I am at a loss here. I do not see what others are seeing. If I am lost please help me to understand.

You do know that there are cooling systems, that are water based that don't have a resorvouir. See this is the problem, I see with most comments about this. Most of them are based on what they know and not based on whats in development. PCE posted a pic of a water cooling system that perfect for a small form factor from NEC.

Nintendo has a goal set, and that is to have a small but powerful, quiet, low power consuming console. When you have millions to billions of dollars to invest in R&D, you find the technology necessary.

If MS or Sony wanted their console to be smaller, they could have made it so. All they have to do is invest in doing so.

And the Revolution will have one proprietary digital/analog A/V connection , also two usb ports. I believe the GC controller port will be solder to the PCB.

 

[scificube]

You do know that there are cooling systems, that are water based that don't have a resorvouir. See this is the problem, I see with most comments about this. Most of them are based on what they know and not based on whats in development. PCE posted a pic of a water cooling system that perfect for a small form factor from NEC.

Nintendo has a goal set, and that is to have a small but powerful, quiet, low power consuming console. When you have millions to billions of dollars to invest in R&D, you find the technology necessary.

If MS or Sony wanted their console to be smaller, they could have made it so. All they have to do is invest in doing so.

And the Revolution will have one proprietary digital/analog A/V connection , also two usb ports. I believe the GC controller port will be solder to the PCB.

No. I did not know they had water solution available that does not use a reservoir. However, this changes very little. The heat must be transfered to the envronrment from the liquid so I'll assume either more fans are used or the liquid itself transfers heat quite readily. In any case it would still seem more expensive than the norm and if not it is still more expensive than simply using airflow. I don't see how this changes all that much.

I did not contend that such a cooling system or any other cooling system could not be fabricated and used.

I spoke to the implications of using different approaches. There in lies my point of view which I still see no reason to put aside.

I am an avid Nintendo fan. I have been for a long time. I have witnessed those billions Nintendo sits on and accumulates not be used over and over to the ends I would like them to be... or that would simply make sense because of their tenacious approach to staying positive to the bottom line in ALL things.

Nintendo does not splurge money. Nintendo does no operate at a loss. Nintendo is quite adverse to spending at all. When Nintendo spends we spend more in buying extraneous "side" products to re-coup their losses. I know what I'm talking about and can site several instances if need be. Most of which require no research whatsoever but only the simple power of observation in watching them for a significant amount of time.

I can say this will all certainty. They will not spend billions in R&D on anything barring billions upon billions is steaming into their revenue stream. They have the power to do so, but they will not act in this manner.

Nintendo is not absolved of having to deal with reality. If they want X360/PS3 performance they can have it but it will come at a price. If they want it in a smaller package then it will cost them more not less. In truth, I would agree with you that Nintendo could find the technology necessary to best even the PS3's specs and still put the system in such a small case. My point is that it will be anything but cheap to do this unless Nintendo chose to operate at a significant loss on the HW front which has never happened to this very instant.

I am not arguing merely against technological possibility. The issue is more complex than that. I am saying that this idea or rather behavior would go against Nintendo's history (with respect to spending), and their stated plans for the Revolution as well. (Just for whomever who would historically note that Nintendo has never had the weakest system at the launch of their consoles life...I realize that. They are taking a different approach due to many factors including the manner in which the spend money and noting them or how I see them would require another voluminous post.)

You say that Sony and MS could of made their system smaller if they elected to. I fully agree with this. I only note that in ALL cases be it Sony, MS or Nintendo such decisions have consequences. Everything I said about Nintendo would apply to them but in their cases they are not adverse to spending money on this scale, processing power is not stated by them to be contrary to their paths of progression (please don't...you know what I mean), and in the cases of Sony especially the R&D for the HW would be beneficial as their's has seemingly more applications than only the PS3.

Lastly the points you made about the ports...I thought about that when I said what I said earlier but rather than be my normal annoyingly verbose self I tried to summarize that it was still significant given the small space we're looking at. The GCN ports will be soldered to the PCB as this only makes sense. The point is that they will still consume some volume within the case along with the typical proprietary AV out etc and with so little volume to work with it is something to note. (Although primarily in the context of working with an airflow cooling system) I was being quick as I already thought I was getting nit picky. There were and still are other things to note but it's not worth going over what most everyone here knows far better than I.