DVD only on XB2 says inquirer

[Spidermate]

If the X2 really does launch in 2005, it doesn't matter how advantageous either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray would be. Neither will be ready for inclusion in a $300 device.

If you want to get a sense of where game size will be, examine recent PC games as baselines. All or nearly all of them fit on one DVD, so a lot of the hand-wringing is unfounded.

If MS goes with HD-DVD, they stand to make far less profit as well as promote a format with no guarantee of popularity. In return, they gain the ability to put some number of games on one disc instead of 2-4 discs. Does it really make any sense to go with HD-DVD at that point?

Inane, this is not current genenerion software we are discussing here. It's next-gen that seems to be the problem. Why do you think CDs are obsolete in relation to current gen consoles comapred to last-gen? If we are already tapping the mark of dual layer disc with a few titles of this gen, in theory, that mark will be completely filled by next-gen, no doubt.

Cost may be an issue for Microsoft since their are licenses involved. I just think that with their fundings and the stiff competition they wouldn't allow something like this to slip through their fingers. But, I do agree with you that Micorosoft could be taking a risk by choosing a format that has not yet proven itself in the market.

 

[Qroach]

i wouldn't jump to conclusions on what it would cost MS. They are invovled with the HD-DVD consortum by tossing in a video compression format. Having your technology included, means you don't have to pay the licensing fees if you purchase the hardware from what I understand.

 

[AzBat]

i wouldn't jump to conclusions on what it would cost MS. They are invovled with the HD-DVD consortum by tossing in a video compression format. Having your technology included, means you don't have to pay the licensing fees if you purchase the hardware from what I understand.

MS also got their compression format into BluRay too. BTW, I have doubts that just because your compression format is supported by the standard that means you get to use it for free. Hopefully somebody more knowledgable will be able to set the record straight.

Tommy McClain

 

[Shogmaster]

I believe you may be mistaking here.

1. This is not about us; it's about the developers. COST is the issue I am stressing here. At the cost of one Blu Ray disc (and probably HD-DVD disc as well) with a much higher capacity rate will cost less than what we would pay for a single DVD disc for this generation, meaning double the cost of a single DVD just to get slightly better if not inferior results than what you would normally get for a newer format by itself. This does affects the developers, y'know.

I can't believe you are actually trying to make a case for BR and HD-DVD costing the devs and pubs less than the standard DVD. I'm speechless. It's like I'm stuck in some bizzarro backwards world.

2. It's true that more capacity requires a higher transfer rate. What you don't understand is that Blu Ray is touted to have this. So, it can be assumed that HD-DVD must, too, have this as well.

I understand everything fine. I think you are the one who needs more research. Both BR and HD-DVD 1X drives will transfer at about 33Mbits per second (about 3 times the speed of a 1X DVD drive). They are planning for around 2X drive for the deluxe models by end of this year. That's only about 66Mbits/second. 16X DVD drive does almost double of that. Even the best HD-DVD drive available will take almost twice as long to fill up Xenon's system RAM as a cheap 16X DVD drive.

3. First of all, Blu Ray, in relation to Sony, is very old technology.It has been out for years now. The difference is it has been modified to suit not just it's own maket, but the entire market as well, which is the reason we are hearing so much about it now.

You missed my point. I bought my first DVD player in back in 1997. And before that, I watched movies on my friend's DVD player for around 2 years. Consumer DVD players shipped in 1995. No BR player has been sold to Joe Blow consumer as of yet, and won't until the end of this year (same as HD-DVD players).

Secondly, the Blu Ray technology going into the PS3 will only be at its bare minimum. In other words, it will not come bundled with a burner which was mentioned of the Blu Ray format in one of the press releases. Not only that, but Sony is one of the main backers behind Blu Ray. This by itself will knock the price down tremendously.

I don't even know why you are bringing up BR recorder into this discussion. And even though Sony is selling the BR drives to themselves, it will still cost them more money than a standard DVD drive to include in the PS3.

BTW, do anyone remember when Sony first announced their PS2 supporting DVD just after a fews months before they found a way of making the format backwards compatible with CDs? It's no different here.

The Toshiba DVD player my friend bought back in 1995 could play CDs fine. I think you are plain old confused about the facts.

4. It's true that the DVD was a huge impact on the sales for the second console, but as I said, it goes beyond that now. We are looking at developer support.

For gaming developers, HD-DVD and BR matters very little. I already covered why.

You must not also forget that these consoles were the reason for the surge in sales for the DVD format to begin with.

The real surge didn't happen until DVD players went below $100. Consoles hardly did anything for DVD format outside of the 9 months of decent game drought after PS2 launch in Japan.

It's the reason for DVD taking this long before it finally penetrated the market. The same could most possibly happen for any one of the other formats if it was implemented into a gaming machine.

This is a very wierd and distorted view of what has actaully happend in DVD format's history. I can't believe you are actually serious.

Futhermore, you don't need an HDTV to experience HD-DVD or Blu Ray quality. These formats expand in a wide range of quality options: sound, capacity, and above normal visualization. Adding this format will not handicap these systems, as far as quality goes; it would only strengthen their position in the market.

Some facts: 2 hour long 1280x720 (720p) WMV9 hi def movie fits on a single sided single layer DVD-R (4.7GB) with plenty of room to spare. One of my hard drives contain both Matrix Reloaded in 720p, and Fifth Element in 720p. They both look incredible compared to the SD DVD versions I bought. BR is not necessary for HD movie viewing, but HD display most definitely is. The same 720p WMV9 via S-Video out of my video card to my 27" SD TV set look no different than the DVD versions, while it looks incredible on my 19" aperature grille CRT and 18" SXGA LCD connected to my computer.

And as I have already explained, in 2005, HD-DVD drive will make loading of data to RAM on Xenon take much longer than a fast DVD drive, negatively impacting on the gaming experience.

 

[wco81]

Blue laser diodes has real costs. MS is licensing its codecs pretty cheaply but remember that both formats also have to pay licenses for MPEG2 and MPEG4 H.264. (also, some rumblings that several companies may claim patents on VC-1 as its implementation was revealed during the SMPTE standardization process).

MS says they're officially neutral but Blu-Ray is pushing competing technologies like a Java layer for interactivity. If BR won the format war, it could potentially be a popular platform for multimedia delivery using a lot of non-MS technology. We've seen how Microsoft reacted to Netscape, Java, Real, QuickTime, etc.

HDTV growth now has to be a lot greater than DVD growth because the latter is a lot more mature by now. By the end of the decade, there are projections that DVD installed base will be well over 50% of households in this country, at least in the tens of millions.

So console features may need to reflect this eventuality.

 

[L_i_n_k]

Before we start calculating waiting times between blueray and regular 16x dvd. Even if it is 10hours long linear game and the Br version takes over 30gigs. Im not going to start looking for that disck number 4 (dvd version) in the dark, middle of the nigh, if i can have the experience in one sitting. Secondly there are lots of game types whitch don`t fit very well in to disk swapping, specially in next gen ,think non linear gameworlds and nethworked multiplayer sport/driving games, for just example. Lastly, Yes finalfantasy runned just fine, but 50hour non chaptericed games are rare breed, and since when we ever had a 16x drive in console?, that certainly would make me add FEW nots to the volume bar.

 

[London Geezer]

Before we start calculating waiting times between blueray and regular 16x dvd. Even if it is 10hours long linear game and the Br version takes over 30gigs. Im not going to start looking for that disck number 4 (dvd version) in the dark, middle of the nigh, if i can have the experience in one sitting. Secondly there are lots of game types whitch don`t fit very well in to disk swapping, specially in next gen ,think non linear gameworlds and nethworked multiplayer sport/driving games, for just example. Lastly, Yes finalfantasy runned just fine, but 50hour non chaptericed games are rare breed, and since when we ever had a 16x drive in console?, that certainly would make me add FEW nots to the volume bar.

it doesn't matter if previous drives never had 16x speeds. In the end they get what they need. PS2's drive in CD mode spins at 24x, not sure about Xbox.
16x DVD in 2006 will be cheap. If it's needed, it will be there.

 

[L_i_n_k]

have you ever streamed a movie from a 16xdvd. that is some loud shit going on there. I really dont think that its silent enought for a console. but well see what happens, but if microsoft plans to take sony seriously, dvd is really a joke when porting is considered. but then again, they ported ps1 resident evil for n64, i rather not see microsoft take path similiar to that

 

[Shogmaster]

have you ever streamed a movie from a 16xdvd. that is some loud shit going on there. I really dont think that its silent enought for a console.

Any DVD spinning noise will be completely drowned out by the screaming fans that will have to cool the CPU and the GPU.

but well see what happens, but if microsoft plans to take sony seriously, dvd is really a joke when porting is considered. but then again, they ported ps1 resident evil for n64, i rather not see microsoft take path similiar to that

Making multiple cartridges is expensive. Pressing multiple DVDs is not.

 

[London Geezer]

have you ever streamed a movie from a 16xdvd. that is some loud shit going on there. I really dont think that its silent enought for a console. but well see what happens, but if microsoft plans to take sony seriously, dvd is really a joke when porting is considered. but then again, they ported ps1 resident evil for n64, i rather not see microsoft take path similiar to that

Err did u hear PS2 or DC when in CD mode at 24x??? A Concorde is quieter.

 

[sonycowboy]

I understand everything fine. I think you are the one who needs more research. Both BR and HD-DVD 1X drives will transfer at about 33Mbits per second (about 3 times the speed of a 1X DVD drive). They are planning for around 2X drive for the deluxe models by end of this year. That's only about 66Mbits/second. 16X DVD drive does almost double of that. Even the best HD-DVD drive available will take almost twice as long to fill up Xenon's system RAM as a cheap 16X DVD drive.

Well, you're a bit off with your knowledge of the speeds.

1xDVD = 11.08Mbps
1xHD-DVD = 36Mbps
16xDVD = 177.28Mbps

PDF released on August 3rd 2004 (a few days before specification 1.0 was approved on Aug 11th), the Blu-Ray consortium stated

1xBD-R/BD-RE = 36Mbps
1xBD-ROM = 54Mbps

Blu-Ray is ~5 times faster than DVD on a single speed basis, but yeah, DVD 16x would be approximately Blu-Ray 3x

The 2.0 format is assumed to be bringing with it the 2x speed (and possibly the 4x) and should be out mid-to-late this year.

Finally, there are some very real concerns about 16x DVD being viable for a home console based on usage patterns, wear and tear (on both the drie and the discs), and as someone stated above, the volume.

 

[L_i_n_k]

edit
err...Well maybe its time to take my relationship to the next level.

Err did u hear PS2 or DC when in CD mode at 24x??? A Concorde is quieter.

Was that it, i thought it was a that new bullet train taking late apexing. Thank god they did use that dvd. By the way just asking, is it only me here who just lost it in :it came from the desert,cause : disk swapping in every major happening. Suggesting... i really dont want to go back

 

[Shogmaster]

Well, you're a bit off with your knowledge of the speeds.

1xDVD = 11.08Mbps
1xHD-DVD = 36Mbps
16xDVD = 177.28Mbps

33 v 36. Sue me.

Besides, those figures bolster my points even more! 16X DVD is almost 3 times as fast as 2X HD-DVD, according to your numbers. Even a mere 12X DVD drive will be twice as fast as a 2X HD-DVD drive.

PDF released on August 3rd 2004 (a few days before specification 1.0 was approved on Aug 11th), the Blu-Ray consortium stated

1xBD-R/BD-RE = 36Mbps
1xBD-ROM = 54Mbps

Blu-Ray is ~5 times faster than DVD on a single speed basis, but yeah, DVD 16x would be approximately Blu-Ray 3x

The 2.0 format is assumed to be bringing with it the 2x speed (and possibly the 4x) and should be out mid-to-late this year.

Interesting stuff.

Finally, there are some very real concerns about 16x DVD being viable for a home console based on usage patterns, wear and tear (on both the drie and the discs), and as someone stated above, the volume.

Hell, you don't even need 16X in the Xenon. 12X will do fine since it's twice as fast as a 2X HD-DVD drive.

 

[London Geezer]

Fact is, they need to decide between twice the speed or 5-6 times the storage capacity... Or however much it is...

 

[Inane_Dork]

Inane, this is not current genenerion software we are discussing here. It's next-gen that seems to be the problem. Why do you think CDs are obsolete in relation to current gen consoles comapred to last-gen? If we are already tapping the mark of dual layer disc with a few titles of this gen, in theory, that mark will be completely filled by next-gen, no doubt.

You're not listening. I'm talking about the most recent PC games which should serve well as a baseline for game size. So how big are recent PC games? I think HL2 is around 4 GB. UT2k4 is in the same area.

The point being, most next-gen games would fit on a DVD9. You can cite specific examples of games that will not fit, true. But for every one of those, there are probably 15 that would fit with ample room to spare.

Cost may be an issue for Microsoft since their are licenses involved. I just think that with their fundings and the stiff competition they wouldn't allow something like this to slip through their fingers. But, I do agree with you that Micorosoft could be taking a risk by choosing a format that has not yet proven itself in the market.

Slip through their fingers? What? What revenue does MS hope to get through HD-DVD that they cannot get through DVD?

It would be irresponsible of MS to put a first-generation HD-DVD drive in the X2. Totally unproven, prone to errors, really high cost, etc. You can argue virtues all day long, but it remains that going with first-generation HD-DVD drives is a bad idea.

 

[L_i_n_k]

Just asking, but why on earth they need to ditch those fancy x52 motors every time they invent a new colored diode. Is it becouse of money or do they really have that much problems detecting those newly compressed holes with only certain amount of eyespeed.

 

[Spidermate]

I can't believe you are actually trying to make a case for BR and HD-DVD costing the devs and pubs less than the standard DVD. I'm speechless. It's like I'm stuck in some bizzarro backwards world.

How long have you been keeping up with these formats? It has been stated that these disc (at lease Blu Ray) is only 10% more than DVD now, and this was last year. Then it was recently updated that the disc cost less than the average DVD disc. Seriously, do some research before you begin to question.

I understand everything fine. I think you are the one who needs more research. Both BR and HD-DVD 1X drives will transfer at about 33Mbits per second (about 3 times the speed of a 1X DVD drive). They are planning for around 2X drive for the deluxe models by end of this year. That's only about 66Mbits/second. 16X DVD drive does almost double of that. Even the best HD-DVD drive available will take almost twice as long to fill up Xenon's system RAM as a cheap 16X DVD drive.

I could bet my life on it, that you are referring to HD-DVD which I assumed the case.

You missed my point. I bought my first DVD player in back in 1997. And before that, I watched movies on my friend's DVD player for around 2 years. Consumer DVD players shipped in 1995. No BR player has been sold to Joe Blow consumer as of yet, and won't until the end of this year (same as HD-DVD players).

Again, do some research before you question.

Blu Ray started out as a Blu Ray only format over in Japan exclusively with a cartridge-like disc. Before then, these players never made it to the market do to them being so expensive to produce.

I don't even know why you are bringing up BR recorder into this discussion. And even though Sony is selling the BR drives to themselves, it will still cost them more money than a standard DVD drive to include in the PS3.

One reason, Sony is allowing Microsoft to use their Blu Ray format. Second reason, Microsoft hasn't choosen a format. Third reason, it is a strategy repeating itself from this generation. Would you like any other reasons?

The Toshiba DVD player my friend bought back in 1995 could play CDs fine. I think you are plain old confused about the facts.

Incase you haven't notice, both Toshiba and Sony were in on the DVD format. Toshiba had more patents while Sony didn't. However, this didn't stop them from coming up with thier own solution for their own format's compatibility.

For gaming developers, HD-DVD and BR matters very little. I already covered why.

I'm afraid that wasn't enough, esspecially with developers like EA already looking at a different format to support thier titles. If I remember right, they gave the OPPOSITE reasons in which you gave for these formats to be supported. I think that says enough about exclusive deals here.

The real surge didn't happen until DVD players went below $100. Consoles hardly did anything for DVD format outside of the 9 months of decent game drought after PS2 launch in Japan.

Oh really? To date, console DVD players has been said to have sold the most DVD players in the world. Even Toshiba seems to have agreed with this when they were looking for Microsoft to support their new format, HD-DVD.

It's the reason for DVD taking this long before it finally penetrated the market. The same could most possibly happen for any one of the other formats if it was implemented into a gaming machine.

This is a very wierd and distorted view of what has actaully happend in DVD format's history. I can't believe you are actually serious.

The way you seemed to have been reading up on everything, I'm not surprised.

Some facts: 2 hour long 1280x720 (720p) WMV9 hi def movie fits on a single sided single layer DVD-R (4.7GB) with plenty of room to spare. One of my hard drives contain both Matrix Reloaded in 720p, and Fifth Element in 720p. They both look incredible compared to the SD DVD versions I bought. BR is not necessary for HD movie viewing, but HD display most definitely is. The same 720p WMV9 via S-Video out of my video card to my 27" SD TV set look no different than the DVD versions, while it looks incredible on my 19" aperature grille CRT and 18" SXGA LCD connected to my computer.

And as I have already explained, in 2005, HD-DVD drive will make loading of data to RAM on Xenon take much longer than a fast DVD drive, negatively impacting on the gaming experience.

As much as I wanted to point out a lot the the ridiculous flaws you had there, some how it just wasn't worth it. I bet you said the very samething about a CD, didn't you? :?

 

[Shogmaster]

How long have you been keeping up with these formats? It has been stated that these disc (at lease Blu Ray) is only 10% more than DVD now, and this was last year. Then it was recently updated that the disc cost less than the average DVD disc. Seriously, do some research before you begin to question.

Until these things are mass produced by publishers, all that is mere unproven boasting by the BR consortium pimping it's own format. Proof will be in the pudding later. This is all kind of moot, since it costs small fraction of a dallar to press DVD now for pubs.

My point, however, had to do with the fact that a dev/pub will have to invest in new equipement to press BR/HD-DVD discs. That's added cost.

I could bet my life on it, that you are referring to HD-DVD which I assumed the case.

Huh? what are you talking about?

Anyways, BR consortium's offical BR web site still says 26MBits per second for 1X.

Again, do some research before you question.

Blu Ray started out as a Blu Ray only format over in Japan exclusively with a cartridge-like disc. Before then, these players never made it to the market do to them being so expensive to produce.

What are you going on about? I'm talking about the fact that no one has started selling a HD-DVD nor a BR player for Joe consumer yet! If I'm wrong, please link me to a place that sells a player. I'd like to buy one!

One reason, Sony is allowing Microsoft to use their Blu Ray format. Second reason, Microsoft hasn't choosen a format. Third reason, it is a strategy repeating itself from this generation. Would you like any other reasons?

None of them has anything to do with the discussion at hand.

Incase you haven't notice, both Toshiba and Sony were in on the DVD format. Toshiba had more patents while Sony didn't. However, this didn't stop them from coming up with thier own solution for their own format's compatibility.

What's that esoteric info have to do with the fact that DVD launched way back in 1995? You are just trying to veer away the discussion for no reason.

I'm afraid that wasn't enough, esspecially with developers like EA already looking at a different format to support thier titles. If I remember right, they gave the OPPOSITE reasons in which you gave for these formats to be supported. I think that says enough about exclusive deals here.

EA is far from a good example to base what the industry as whole aims for. For EA, securing exclusive rights to NFL just to stamp out a competitor is just business as usual. EA is hardly a normal gaming dev/pub citizen. They are as normal as gaming dev as Micheal Jackson is to us.

Oh really? To date, console DVD players has been said to have sold the most DVD players in the world. Even Toshiba seems to have agreed with this when they were looking for Microsoft to support their new format, HD-DVD.

More improtant fact to consider is just how many of those console are being used as a main/only DVD player? Far from the majority.

The way you seemed to have been reading up on everything, I'm not surprised.

As much as I wanted to point out a lot the the ridiculous flaws you had there, some how it just wasn't worth it. I bet you said the very samething about a CD, didn't you? :?

Humor us.

 

[jvd]

Hmm dvd rw in xbox 2 ? I just got a 16x for 59$ at newegg on sale ... That would be a good reason to stay with dvd instead of hd -dvd

 

[cthellis42]

I somehow doubt any system is going to be THAT giving as far is piracy is concerned. One quick hack and you could turn an Xbox LAN party into a game-swapping one?

Not much reason to in general. Certainly not on the main model. If they are indeed going to try to follow through with an Xbox 2 as "media player" as well (built-in large hard drive, more dedicated-to-that-purpose UI...) I could see it. But then, I can't quite see them wanting to piss off OEM's who have followed through with their Media Center PC venture, either. Nor compromise their Media Center version of Windows. At least not yet.