Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2010]

kagemaru · Dec 16, 2010

Arwin said:
Didn't some other team recently state they went back to a single threaded renderer in order to decrease latency or something?

Maybe you guys aren't getting the point I was trying to make :???:

Eh doesn't matter now anyways I guess.

Rangers · Dec 17, 2010

Bigduo209 said:
I wonder if Grandmaster is gonna do a feature on Mass Effect 2 for the PS3.

Since it's using ME3's engine it would be a nice way to take a look as to what improvements the new engine has over the old one (i.e. ME2 on the 360).

Seems so. Well, I'd imagine a brief look anyway.

@Digital_Foundry
One more week of Digital Foundry. We're breaking up for the holidays on December 23rd. So time enough for the Mass Effect 2 PS3 demo...

KKRT · Dec 22, 2010

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-masseffect2-demo-analysis?page=2

Why grandmaster hasnt done fps analysis of second section of demo? You got more weapons, better skills, more enemies, so its should be more tasking and it in my opinion [i saw higher fps drops] it was.

AlNom · Dec 22, 2010

KKRT said:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-masseffect2-demo-analysis?page=2

Why grandmaster hasnt done fps analysis of second section of demo? You've got more weapons, better skills, more enemies, so its should be more tasking and it in my opinion [i saw higher fps drops].

Time.

Though I imagine a framerate analysis comparing it to the 360 SKU would have been desirable for the purpose of the article, and getting to the same spot would have taken many more hours. It was a bit of a shame that they changed the second level in the demo compared to the 360 and PC demos, though I can see why they would do that.

Arwin · Dec 23, 2010

In the comparison videos, I see quite a bit more movement in the self-shadows. Clearly the lighting and shadowing has changed quite a bit, and as the game has been ported to the new engine, the art sometimes suffers quite a bit. Will try the demo on my PS3 myself tomorrow.

jonabbey · Dec 23, 2010

It was difficult to tell from the ME2 demo comparison how the PS3 version is improved at all, other than the higher res textures in conjunction with the removal of normal mapping on characters.

Laa-Yosh · Dec 23, 2010

So, can we draw any conclusions about the ME3 engine based on its first iteration on the PS3?

I for one can't really catch anything as radical as the upgrades from the first game, although a lot of those changes were also related to the content (better shaders and textures mostly).
Then again, what most fans seem to be asking for is larger open environments, which is more of a performance/efficiency related issue and not really a new feature for the engine. But I'd also rather see Bioware focus on this aspect, the game is probably already close to the best that it can look on current generation consoles.

KKRT · Dec 23, 2010

But I'd also rather see Bioware focus on this aspect, the game is probably already close to the best that it can look on current generation consoles.

Really? I actually think that ME 2 is the most overrated game in terms of graphics. Yes, it has nice models and awesome art, but geometry, draw distance, scale, backgrounds, effects, particles, AI - it really lacks in every department and still runs in low 20 in fight on consoles without AA. Actually, the best proof of this, is fact that You can run ME 2 on console settings in 60 fps almost on any low-end notebook with normal GPU [not intergrated], but You cant do that in other games like for example BC 2, AC 2 or MW 2/BO.

I actually think that ME 1 was more challenging in term of pure tech and optimization - big scale, almost all cut-scenes were real time [even Citadel attack], more AI units etc.

Laa-Yosh · Dec 23, 2010

I disagree with some of your points...

ME2 also has some large scale environments, although not much of them is interactive (interior of the Collector ship has some crazy draw distance, for example). It's just that they focused on more varied scenery, instead of large but empty and bland ones.
The Citadel as an example had some large open spaces in ME1 - but all you did was run around in them. ME2 has less traveling distance between the points of interest, and also doesn't try to tie together 10 smaller levels with loading pauses to create the illusion of a big space. Which, again, mostly serves to have all the characters spaced out far from each other, although it did add to a certain sense of exploration.

And most of the large scale fights were messed up anyway, either you killed everyone from beyond their range, or they caught you with a single sniper shot. Large scale battles were only good for frame rate drops and dying squad mates because they couldn't take any kind of cover.

The rest, I guess, is more complicated, I didn't really think that the first game's AI was better (running around the level for no reason?), or effects looked that good, for example.
I also happen to prefer the pre-rendered space cutscenes with all the nice post effects that are just not possible in realtime yet. ME2's end scene wouldn't really work with those 250 reapers in realtime anyway, that'd be like 5.6 million polygons to display.

Also, ME runs good on PCs probably because it's Unreal Engine 3 based and Epic probably has better code then whatever. And I like the graphics because of the near perfect art style and execution anyway

KKRT · Dec 23, 2010

although not much of them is interactive (interior of the Collector ship has some crazy draw distance, for example)

I know, but it has so bad details and textures.

Some my screens from different scenes

I dont have save from krogan's worm fight, but background was laughable there, really low res and bad.
Do You really think its "close to the best that it can look on current generation consoles. " and it should run in 20-23 fps on consoles? :>

Ps. Still think Mass Effect its the best IP of this generation and Mass Effect 2 its one of the best game of this year

, even if I hate Bioware gameplay decisions with mainstreaming everything in it.

nightshade · Dec 23, 2010

Textures aren't the the only things that you account for when talking about tech/graphics.

In any case you also have to consider the variety of textures used, its a trade off between variety vs high res textures for environment and Bioware choose the former. If you look at that then yes they are probably near the peak of what they can achieve from the current engine or consoles in terms of textures. Can it get any better ? maybe yes, but that's not to say that they are under-utilizing the hardware here. Beside its a third person game so you have to give it the benefit of having a camera that's far off from everything, because you don't normally zoom into a texture with a sniper scope.

Though stuff like this do look strange, cause you don't normally have backgrounds as low detailed as the the one from that particular level (I think its the Krogan recruitment level). I can perhaps account it to Bioware not spending much time over the less important things, I could very well be wrong though.

KKRT · Dec 23, 2010

Yeah, but Assasins Creed or Uncharted, or Enslaved has better textures. I'm not even talking about fake shadows, or reflections and i showed poor geometry as well [7-8 pods per rock].

nightshade · Dec 23, 2010

KKRT said:
Yeah, but Assasins Creed or Uncharted, or Enslaved has better textures. I'm not even talking about fake shadows, or reflections and i showed poor geometry as well [7-8 pods per rock].

As I said

In any case you also have to consider the variety of textures used, its a trade off between variety vs high res textures for environment and Bioware choose the former.

You'll probably find much more texture variation in Mass Effect 2 than any of the games you mentioned. And simple cubemaps to imitate reflection on metals, pre baked shadows are used by a considerable number of games.

KKRT · Dec 23, 2010

You'll probably find much more texture variation in Mass Effect 2 than any of the games you mentioned. And simple cubemaps to imitate reflection on metals, pre baked shadows are used by a considerable number of games.

Yes of course, but they arent consider as a tech showcases ;]

You'll probably find much more texture variation in Mass Effect 2

Not sure about AC, probably You're right, but definitely not the case in Uncharted [especially 2] and Enslaved.
Still art direction in Mass Effect is unmatched

and we cant argue about that.

joker454 · Dec 23, 2010

KKRT said:
Still art direction in Mass Effect is unmatched and we cant argue about that.

I think that's where ME's big win is, in art direction. To me it's one of the best looking games out there and it's largely due to art direction, stuff like the variety of the looks, and especially their use of color, etc, it all looks brilliant to me. Technically it may not be at the top but it doesn't matter in the end result. Mind you they are a scifi game so that gives them lots of freedoms to try looks that wouldn't be possible in other styles of games so that gives them an advantage.

L. Scofield · Dec 23, 2010

KKRT said:
Yes of course, but they arent consider as a tech showcases ;]

Did anyone actually considered ME2 a tech showcase?

I always thought the raving about the graphics was about the art side.

Neb · Dec 23, 2010

KKRT said:
Yes of course, but they arent consider as a tech showcases ;]

But it aint no slouch either. Game got nice lighting, especially cutscenes, the SSS effect, DOF is good (when not set to weak strength). artwork being it's strong point the textures are still quite varied and has quite consistent quality. There are parts with big sceneries like the "Blade Runner" esque city and outdoors environments. Geometry amount should be decent and characters have quite some ranging to 20, 30k polys or more and guns quite good to. There is a special type of lensflare used quite heavily which fits game and particle effects are nice and detailed.

Maybe they should have upped DOF strength for distant DOF to give more depth to scenes. Anyway I am satisfied with the looks of ME2.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1461410&postcount=1545
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1461411&postcount=1546
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1461436&postcount=1550

Also textures on avg are quite good. While some textures are lower res many are quite high either for diffuse layer and/or mapping layer.. atleast on PC. Most ground texture diffuse and/or mapping layer aswell as walls and quite a lot of stuff is highres/high detail. Some packs so much detail it almost shimmers. I dont see it really being much worse if worse at all than U2 since that game also got highres and lowres textures in a mix. Check out these pics.

http://www.abload.de/img/me2pc12myn7.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/me2pc89lx2.jpg

KKRT · Dec 23, 2010

L. Scofield said:
Did anyone actually considered ME2 a tech showcase?

I always thought the raving about the graphics was about the art side.

Read posts i quoted earlier.

Yeah, for me Mass Effect 2 looks good too [sometimes even great like scene with biotic bubble, prison, subject zero training facility or intro scene to ME 2 when Normandy is damaged], but i'm not demanding especially when it comes to RPGs [or 'RPG' in this case], but it could look better. I actually think that new UE 3.5 features + some texture enchantment would changed a lot.
But i would rather prefer gameplay changes - better log system, bringing old experience system, more open world areas, deeper and richer skill system, new loot system - not 3-4 guns per weapon class, higher difficulty settings that are not playable in first play-through, better AI, bigger encounters, more stats and menu with summed stats and more RPG elements etc - than graphic improvements.

Ps. I would also take action game spin-off based around Justicars with open arms ;] - something like psi-ops in ME world with biotics.

Laa-Yosh · Dec 24, 2010

It's getting off topic, so let's just remember that the lead gameplay designer, Christina Norman, has promised "richer RPG features" among other things in her GDC talk this spring. ME3 is probably going to go a little more public before E3 and we'll all be able to see what changes Bioware has managed to get in.

ct03 · Dec 24, 2010

Laa-Yosh said:
I also happen to prefer the pre-rendered space cutscenes with all the nice post effects that are just not possible in realtime yet.

When I played the game (on PC), I was shocked by how awful and blurry the cutscenes looked compared to the actual game. I MUCH prefer the realtime cutscenes of ME1.

Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2010]

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