Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2010]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Wait, so no more Irridium Slice for LBP2 ? If so, is it because they need to give the user more camera control this time round ?

It's the new rendering effect for the old Toxic Fog, so functions identically - you can have things walk through it it stick it on objects to make them dangerous. It'll look out of the place with orignal story levels though, and the ghost spewing fluffy clouds instead of their eerie haze!

Bummer, should have kept the old effect and allow creators to use the new smoke for new levels. I guess they will go back and update their own levels.
 
Irridium Slice? Do you mean the irradiance slice technique? As Alex Evans revealed in DF's LBP interview a month or three back, they never used that in LBP1! LBP2 actually does use it. LBP2 takes the scene and turns it into a matrix of light volumes used to illuminate pixels, which is what results in the much improved lighting and ambient occlusion.
 
:LOL: yes, Irradiance Slice. I'm typing from iPad, pardon the spelling correction !

Will read article now. Interesting that they didn't use it in the first game coz it looks "real" and unique.
 
Saw the Splat effects (The "octopus dog" video ?). The cloud looks unnatural but the new effects are indeed cool.

The article doesn't say much about the AI system. There is no pre-built logic like path finding, object avoidance, etc. ? Those are hard to create by the users right ?

The DF article seems to suggest that AI bots can use controllinator ? What does that buy instead of wiring the logic paths into the bot itself ?

The ability to record user input also means that they can use Move input to animate the bots at some point. I remember Anton talk about "motion macros" for Move. Hope they are included with the delay.
 
The second set of shots is the worst offender obviously as it has the most high contrast edges, but it's evident in the other shots also. It's rather comparable to 2x MSAA and a bit better in some cases, but in looks it doesn't appear to come close to approaching 4x MSAA quality in the cases that matter the most (high contrast).
They have improved from the last build 2 months back and expect more to come, and besides, they also said there that in the demo, the feature was sparingly used, so lets keep it to the release!

From all the "OMG, MLAA is the best thing since sliced bread posts" I've seen, I was quite expecting something between 4x and 8x MSAA. Or in other words something closer to what I expect from 4x or 8x MSAA when I use that on PC.
Actually, "OMG, MLAA is the best thing" is pretty true, why? because it enables theoretically 32x MSAA on 5 years old fixed-architecture machines that happen to have a kick@rse CPU on board(which still PCs don't have, though they are approaching to with the sandy-bridge stuff, yeah they call i7 something' though plain number don't say anything). Actually THIS is the definition of technology, having amazingly more from extremely low resources, right?!;)

It's good for consoles certainly, as everything on console is pretty much a jaggy mess and less of a jaggy mess is at least progress.
Heh, I think this sentence was way out of place and can't help but feel you joined the discussion just to say this one :)
Anyhow, nothing against you or your opinion, well my opinion is not what's yours. In my opinion, PCs do things more by the book and more clumsily, you know. For each 'little' new effect, why there need to be a million more transistors to do that?, I totally laugh at these GPU designs. I believe they are in transition. 'More' is not always good. Having to need 8GBs of RAM, latest, expensive GPGPUs, new 6 core CPUs with blah blah blah specs to run games that are 'scalable' by a 5-yrs old fixed hardware, much less in resources and cost and actually has variety, gives lots of room for talking.
If Cell, being a tech of 1/2 a decade back can pull this amazing 16x MSAA all by using MLAA, what's the point of these GPUs, can't they handle it?
If PS3 is 'Kratos' and PC/GPUs are the 'Titans', it only glorifies Kratos more ;), if you know what I mean!

MLAA in gow3, far from a 'jaggy-mess', all off-screen, both with/without DOF:
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/Jp57k.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/image_god_of_war_3-12358-1708_0002.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/bc3kM.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/34zll6h.png
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_362b9_99534343_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_312bc_6011bc7c_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_312b3_1d317ae0_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_312a5_3c2445ad_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3dd61_ed749f1f_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3dd60_f8d2e816_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3dd56_fff5fe08_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3dd4e_a72c4adb_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3c661_19fda1e7_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3c60e_a5cfc1db_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3bdec_72a887bb_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3bde6_bcac1ced_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3bdd3_376b397b_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3bdce_6d3c280d_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3bdb2_c7957a55_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3bd98_6f703d79_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3bd90_81ac97f2_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3bd86_24ce52e1_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3bd9e_c41c7e8a_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_3bd7f_2790b51d_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_2dd2d_c60e9f87_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_2dc61_5151b190_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_2dc5c_1b58b4a8_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_2dc4a_5d03cc79_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_2d8d4_98363afc_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_2b208_a818378c_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_2b22d_bd4d5169_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_2b8b7_374b44a9_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/0_2b8a7_c3071bef_orig.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/MLAA/nyVdY.jpg

mmm... MLAA speaks for itself, A LOT!

But again, that's nothing against MLAA, but probably more against all the freaking hype for it on the boards here which made me expect something better than what it turned out to be.
If it UPs the game on a so-old tech, without any of those "256 GPU cores" heh, it makes their existence moot, and this makes it turn out spectacular alright. The point is its use, don't know why PCs don't use it YET, though I believe you'll start liking it as soon as it comes on PC.
 
but if you get a block in the editor and rotate it, jaggies are extremely hard to spot, such that it's hard to tell if an edge is perfectly vertical/horizontal or not, because you can't measure by the edge tearing.
Well, that interests me...I think that MLAA is strongest in still shots!, while it occasionally has some troubles in a moving scenes (especially in a slow moving scene).

I remember the LBP2 gameplay @gamescom, where I thought that there are indeed some artefacts when the camera slowly moves...is this gone now?
The same goes for Killzone 3, iiirc.


And please, why even discuss 8xMSAA > MLAA? As far as I know, 8xMSAA is not even an option on consoles, so a comparison is useless, IMO.
And please, devs now start to use custom AA solutions even on your mighty PC...there must be a logic reason for this, right?
 
The article doesn't say much about the AI system.
That's because there isn't any. ;). Not beyond the simplest conditional movement behaviours. Bots can follow a palyer or target, avoid a player or target, be frightened of hazards or not care. You can set them up to run a circular path around a central block. That's about it. Everything else has to be constructed. So if you want a SBt to duck when shot at, you'd need to record such an animation (and there's no duck movement!) and then activate it within your game logic.

The DF article seems to suggest that AI bots can use controllinator ? What does that buy instead of wiring the logic paths into the bot itself ?
The article means literally that Sackbots can sit in Controllinator chairs and control other things directly, including other Sackbots. The DF shooter level has five types of enemies that appear in waves. These are actually spawned rather than placed in the map. There's a Sackbot at the far side in a controllinator who moves a spawning block covered in emmitters, pressing various buttons to create enemies. This sort of thing means the creator can record complex motions within their game that would be very hard to create with timers and circuits, and have them run through the help of little level-elves - Sackbots who aren't actors in the production but working behind the scenes.

It's a pretty cute idea, actually!

If I understand Shifty correctly, the new fog will replace the old one in LBP1 levels.
Yep. It's a different particle/special effects engine that replaces LBP1's.

I remember the LBP2 gameplay @gamescom, where I thought that there are indeed some artefacts when the camera slowly moves...is this gone now?
Nope! I was being over-enthusiastic. Having posted my remembered experiences, where I crertainly did have trouple seeing if objects were horizontal, I thought I'd better give it an actual look. First I noticed the PopIt border doesn't receive MLAA, so the frame around selected objects is fully jaggied just like the grappler ropes of the demo. This is surprising - MLAA is a post effect, that works on rendered pixels, so why apply it before another drawing operation? Makes ya think. Secondly with a block of high contrast Dark Matter, just off horizontal did have muted jaggies and 'strobing' artefacts as moved. I got it down to a single step, which resulted in the left half of the edge being pixel-perfect aligned, and the right half having a blurred step.

So for those who are ultra sensitive, I'm afraid LBP2 is an eye watering jaggy mess. For the rest of us, it's incredibly clean in game with not much to detract it most of the time. The worst I noticed while playing was with small Sackboys having single-pixel aliased details.

And please, why even discuss 8xMSAA > MLAA? As far as I know, 8xMSAA is not even an option on consoles, so a comparison is useless, IMO.
And please, devs now start to use custom AA solutions even on your mighty PC...there must be a logic reason for this, right?
We're not going to have a PC/console bitch-fest here. :devilish:
Those coming from the PC with suitable rigs are used to very high IQ, and they have an interest in comparing new techniques with what they are used to. At the moment MLAA isn't as effective on average as 16xMSAA, and it's worth considering that as we evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of different techniques; nothing wrong with that.
 
We're not going to have a PC/console bitch-fest here. :devilish:
Agreed.

At the moment MLAA isn't as effective on average as 16xMSAA, and it's worth considering that as we evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of different techniques; nothing wrong with that.

Ok, now I am confused:???:
I thought that we are in the "Console Technology" part of the forum?
Why compare MLAA to 16xMSAA - this has nothing to do with console tech (at least not this generation console tech)?!
We could compare its quality to 0 AA, QAA, 2xMSAA or maybe 4xMSAA or any other custom AA method used in console games - because this it what consoles can achieve at max: IMO that would make sense?!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Why compare MLAA to 16xMSAA - this has nothing to do with console tech (at least not this generation console tech)?!
Because it's a general technology that can apply to future hardware as well as what we currently have, and is a reference for MLAA quality analysis. There's a lot of tech crossover between the consoles and PC, and we can't isolate discussion completely. Technically the AA techniques thread belongs in B3D's 3D Technology and Algorithms forum as it's relevant to all hardware, but as it's mostly seeing inclusion in the consoles it's found a home here. Likewise talk about future console hardware has to consider GPUs and CPUs, which are mostly discussed in detail in the PC hardware section despite not being intrinsically limited to PCs. There's an argument to be made no longer separating console and PC hardware and algorithm talk, but as PC and Console gamers are immiscible, there's a stronger argument to keep the division!
 
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-dead-rising-2-faceoff

DR2 face off, man I was hoping for a better platform parity for this game since its being handle by a different studio. Capcom just can't stop to disappoint PS3 owners..... if MvC3 turns out bad, I can see more angry ppl.
Well at least it only uses on 2.8GB on the PS3 (if that counts as a good thing to you), but then again this isn't using MT Framework so that's only real reason why it does that.

That being said, MvC3 is being made by Capcom themselves (Blue Castle are the devs for DR2) so the console parity for a mere fighting game should be even, even if RE5 and LP2 on the MT-F engine were slight stinkers though.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
There are no Capcom MT Framework games that achieve anything close to parity on the PS3, so why should DR2 be any different? Luckily, for me, I have no interest in fighting games, zombie games, or mediocre shooters, so I'm spared their bad PS3 ports :)
 
There are no Capcom MT Framework games that achieve anything close to parity on the PS3, so why should DR2 be any different? Luckily, for me, I have no interest in fighting games, zombie games, or mediocre shooters, so I'm spared their bad PS3 ports :)
Sorry, I meant to say it isn't using MT Framework (though DF says it's based off the older version for DR1), but it's not using the updated/current version Capcom is using now.

But yeah, even with the current version Capcom still screwed-up with RE5 and LP2 (with the exception DMC4). (Super)SFIV on other hand were pretty equal performance-wise on both consoles, but that used a completely different engine, it sucks that they allegedly won't be using again in the future.
 
And please, why even discuss 8xMSAA > MLAA? As far as I know, 8xMSAA is not even an option on consoles, so a comparison is useless, IMO.
And please, devs now start to use custom AA solutions even on your mighty PC...there must be a logic reason for this, right?

This'll be my last post about it here. I understand perfectly fine that MLAA is a performance compromise.

But that wasn't what I was looking at. I was looking at it purely from an IQ standpoint. And what I saw, at least in LBP2 wasn't anywhere near the hype that has been built up here.

Yes, I also realize that certain forms of custom AA (sometimes similar to MLAA) are making their way to the PC platform also. And that's great. I absolutely love that companies are experimenting with AA. Some form of AA is always better than no AA, IMO. Although a case could be made that Quincunx actually makes things worse.

However, with that said. In most cases, MLAA or other Custom AA modes that make it to PC have focused more on performance than IQ, and thus almost univerally look worse than standard box MSAA. From a performance aspect, it's a win if you have a slow comp or a slow GPU (sub 75 USD one). From the perspective on No in game AA versus some form of in game AA, it's a win. From a purely IQ standpoint, it's generally a loss.

And as Shifty pointed out, what's available on PC now will likely be available on consoles later. But again, that wasn't where I was coming from when looking at that.

And it wasn't about PC versus console. The main reason I even brought up PC was because I can't think of a single console game that has good AA. And when I mean good AA, I mean AA such that my eyes aren't constantly drawn to crawling jaggies here or there. But that's nothing against consoles. Consoles as you pointed out don't have the same horsepower available to PCs. That's fine.

So again. The AA in LBP2 was good. Less jaggies is always better, even if they are still there in abundance (although if you are less sensitive to them, then you might not even see them). But the AA isn't nearly as good as all the hype for MLAA has lead me to believe. Does that mean I think MLAA sucks? Far from it. It just means it's not as good as people in the forums is hyping it up to be. That doesn't prevent it from being a good solution on consoles however.

And that last paragraph was my entire point. :) Anyway, that'll be the last post on that in this thread. If people still want to discuss it, they can always PM me so as not to go too far off topic here.

Regards,
SB
 
Which pictures are you referring to ? I noticed that you compared it to QAA, and thought may be you confused it with other blurring effects in some of the LBP2 shots. ^_^

MLAA built its fame based on God of War 3 (See http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1476063&postcount=576), and the mistaken effects in the Saboteur. GoW3 was done in 2xMSAA, the improvement after switching to MLAA was apparent even to me. :)

It seems rash to conclude that MLAA underdelivers based on just 1-2 shots in LBP2 beta, especially when the technical articles could quantify the improvements regardless of whether one is sensitive to AA or not.
 
If we are interested in the best possible IQ.

Am I right that than SSAA yields the best solution?
Or is there an AA tech that yields better IQ than SSAA
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top