Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2025]

[Charlietus]

I don't understand how something like tlou 2 in cutscenes can have almost perfect shadowing on characters and a great looking depth of field, all on a PS4, while on PS5 you get clair obscure with massive shadow and depth of field aliasing.

As an aside, the mansion in Clair Obscure tells me that software lumen is nowhere near ready for interiors. Lighting boiling everywhere, if I didn't know what was happening I would think that it's straight up broken.

 

[Below2D]

I don't understand how something like tlou 2 in cutscenes can have almost perfect shadowing on characters and a great looking depth of field, all on a PS4, while on PS5 you get clair obscure with massive shadow and depth of field aliasing.

As an aside, the mansion in Clair Obscure tells me that software lumen is nowhere near ready for interiors. Lighting boiling everywhere, if I didn't know what was happening I would think that it's straight up broken.

In their defense, they’re a 30-men team. I don’t think the technological advantage can make up for millions of dollars and a much larger and experienced team.

 

[Dampf]

I don't understand how something like tlou 2 in cutscenes can have almost perfect shadowing on characters and a great looking depth of field, all on a PS4, while on PS5 you get clair obscure with massive shadow and depth of field aliasing.

As an aside, the mansion in Clair Obscure tells me that software lumen is nowhere near ready for interiors. Lighting boiling everywhere, if I didn't know what was happening I would think that it's straight up broken.

Yeah, the manor looks especially horrible.

Also, it seems like Lumen can't do dynamic shadows from local light sources? I've noticed many shadows from local light sources are missing. There are some, but those were probably set manually by the developers. I thought Lumen would handle that automatically.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

In their defense, they’re a 30-men team. I don’t think the technological advantage can make up for millions of dollars and a much larger and experienced team.

How does a larger, more experienced team result in character shadowing and DOF? Aren't those entirely engine qualities driven by hardware power?

 

[Below2D]

Yeah, the manor looks especially horrible.

Also, it seems like Lumen can't do dynamic shadows from local light sources? I've noticed many shadows from local light sources are missing. There are some, but those were probably set manually by the developers. I thought Lumen would handle that automatically.

The manor is really bad in terms of IQ/image stability. The reflections are a flickering mess. It’s awful.

How does a larger, more experienced team result in character shadowing and DOF? Aren't those entirely engine qualities driven by hardware power?

I’m thinking it was perhaps a mix of several things such as manpower and inexperience with the engine. I don’t think those faults are inherent to UE5 and if they are, they can certainly be fixed. At least, more readily than a lot of the other problems because we seldom see AAA devs with those kinds of problems on a maxed out PC, unlike with the other issues.

 

[DavidGraham]

in cutscenes can have almost perfect shadowing on characters

They are using analytical hero lights in cutscenes. Expedition could probably be relying on ambient lighting instead (which flickers a lot with Software Lumen).

the mansion in Clair Obscure tells me that software lumen is nowhere near ready for interiors

Software Lumen isn't ready indeed. Hardware Lumen is needed for such areas.

thought Lumen would handle that automatically

Lumen doesn't touch shadows, Epic brought VSMs specifically for that.

 

[ILikeFeet]

Also, it seems like Lumen can't do dynamic shadows from local light sources? I've noticed many shadows from local light sources are missing. There are some, but those were probably set manually by the developers. I thought Lumen would handle that automatically.

developers can toggle the shadow casting properties of lights to save performance

 

[chris1515]

The game is great on PS5, PS5 Pro and Series X.

 

[Pjotr]

How does a larger, more experienced team result in character shadowing and DOF? Aren't those entirely engine qualities driven by hardware power?

In rendering there are a lot of tricks, most cost more time. Like having a separate mesh that casts the shadow instead of the hair as hair can be noisy. I remember that TLOU can use capsule shadows for cheap soft characters shadows, this feature is also in UE but outside some VR games i don't think people use it much. Capsule shadows also have some limitations and artifacts that can take extra time to work around.
As for DOF, it will amplify any aliasing because DOF goes before your upscaler/taa and makes it hard to clear any aliasing by your taa solution. New games just have more aliasing to begin with. This is because of more dense geometry or realtime GI where everything is shiny. But also because of material aliasing as materials get more complicated as artists get more freedom to author shaders.

 

[Cappuccino]

I don't understand how something like tlou 2 in cutscenes can have almost perfect shadowing on characters and a great looking depth of field, all on a PS4, while on PS5 you get clair obscure with massive shadow and depth of field aliasing.

As an aside, the mansion in Clair Obscure tells me that software lumen is nowhere near ready for interiors. Lighting boiling everywhere, if I didn't know what was happening I would think that it's straight up broken.

It’s not a popular notion on this forum but I feel this way about most games with ‘modern’ graphics: harder to run and with worse IQ than certain standout games from 5-10 years ago.

TLOU2 is always a good example but I also cite Battlefield 1 as being probably the perfection of raster lighting, and imo few RT games surpass it, likely due to compromises we make to get RT working in contemporary hardware.

 

[Charlietus]

It’s not a popular notion on this forum but I feel this way about most games with ‘modern’ graphics: harder to run and with worse IQ than certain standout games from 5-10 years ago.

TLOU2 is always a good example but I also cite Battlefield 1 as being probably the perfection of raster lighting, and imo few RT games surpass it, likely due to compromises we make to get RT working in contemporary hardware.

We are in this ankward transition period, so it is what it is. This whole gen has been ankward and unfortunate in general, even with quality games coming out.

 

[Cappuccino]

We are in this ankward transition period, so it is what it is. This whole gen has been ankward and unfortunate in general, even with quality games coming out.

I don’t see why we have to be in a transition at all, if RT with current hardware limitations makes games look worse then why use it? Why not wait until it’s more viable?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don’t see why we have to be in a transition at all, if RT with current hardware limitations makes games look worse then why use it? Why not wait until it’s more viable?

Because it doesn't make it look worse - it makes it look different. Some people prefer the compromises. And if you had to wait until it was perfect, when would the WIP in developing the techniques needed to make it perfect happen? How would anyone know what was or wasn't viable without actually trying it?

 

[Charlietus]

I don’t see why we have to be in a transition at all, if RT with current hardware limitations makes games look worse then why use it? Why not wait until it’s more viable?

There are many positives, even if they don't always impact what the user sees on the screen positively.

•Having something like lumen accelerates development, since baking is no longer necessary.

•Characters mostly do not have that weird glow that non ray traced games have.

•It forces investments into making ray tracing viable on low end machines, of devices that have slow ray tracing acceleration, like current consoles.

In a way, the struggles of today will make ray tracing better in the future.

 

[Cappuccino]

Because it doesn't make it look worse - it makes it look different. Some people prefer the compromises. And if you had to wait until it was perfect, when would the WIP in developing the techniques needed to make it perfect happen? How would anyone know what was or wasn't viable without actually trying it?

The WIP would be in tech demos and internal research. You don’t need to release a game to further raytracing development.

The most popular sentiment I’ve heard this generation is directly contrary to what you are saying: most I’ve spoken to do not prefer this ‘new way’ at all. Some of the most common complaints about modern games (outside of technical forums like this) is that it’s too blurry (due to not being able to use MSAA and relying on temporal methods) and that resolution is being pushed too low to accommodate the new lighting effects.

 

[Cappuccino]

There are many positives, even if they don't always impact what the user sees on the screen positively.

•Having something like lumen accelerates development, since baking is no longer necessary.

•Characters mostly do not have that weird glow that non ray traced games have.

•It forces investments into making ray tracing viable on low end machines, of devices that have slow ray tracing acceleration, like current consoles.

In a way, the struggles of today will make ray tracing better in the future.

I keep hearing that RT is supposed to accelerate development but games are coming out more half-baked than ever.

I can agree with the other points but I don’t know what you mean by ‘character glow’ on non-RT titles. I have never seen these on well made raster games.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The WIP would be in tech demos and internal research. You don’t need to release a game to further raytracing development.

You can't research results in game without making a game.

The most popular sentiment I’ve heard this generation...

I dare say the mistake is listening to those voices. People who are happy aren't particularly likely to go online and rant about how happy they are. You'll also have confirmation bias in noticing people in agreement with you more than voices who disagree. People tend to complain more than they compliment, so divide those voices by a factor of n to get the real appraisal. Ultimately. the devs are all making the same choices. Either they are missing a trick or they have a better perspective.

 

[troyan]

•It forces investments into making ray tracing viable on low end machines, of devices that have slow ray tracing acceleration, like current consoles.

In a way, the struggles of today will make ray tracing better in the future.

Thats quite ironic when UE5 has no real HW-RT support and uses inefficient ways to "fake" raytracing.

 

[Charlietus]

I keep hearing that RT is supposed to accelerate development but games are coming out more half-baked than ever.

I can agree with the other points but I don’t know what you mean by ‘character glow’ on non-RT titles. I have never seen these on well made raster games.

Even high end titles like RDR2 and TLOU2 have characters that glow in the dark and that approximate how the character is lit but it's still some ways off from what it should be. For a good example, in Halo infinite the enemies look strange for this reason.

 

[Charlietus]

Thats quite ironic when UE5 has no real HW-RT support and uses inefficient ways to "fake" raytracing.

Hardware lumen? And software lumen is still ray tracing.

Btw, are we ever going to see hardware lumen on a game on console? What's the holdup?