Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2024]

Devs will always want more memory. It's overhead. This means a higher ceiling to push higher fidelity assets and/or more detailed scenery.

Providing you have the GPU power to push that higher fidelity.

It's always, always useful.

Would you give an RTX 3060 24GB of VRAM?

Of course you wouldn't, there comes a point where adding memory adds nothing.

We are in the very opposite situation of having 'overkill' memory quantities. It's gonna be a fight to better use the limited memory it's economically possible to include.

I think the consoles are very well balanced in terms of memory, 10GB just for VRAM is, I feel, sufficient given their GPU performance.
 
Providing you have the GPU power to push that higher fidelity.



Would you give an RTX 3060 24GB of VRAM?

Of course you wouldn't, there comes a point where adding memory adds nothing.



I think the consoles are very well balanced in terms of memory, 10GB just for VRAM is, I feel, sufficient given their GPU performance.
You are doing that classic PC gamer thing of not realizing that consoles dictate game ambitions and generational limits. What an RTX 3060 has is largely unimportant.

This is all about consoles, cuz they define a generation. Ever moreso in the multiplatform age.
 
You are doing that classic PC gamer thing of not realizing that consoles dictate game ambitions and generational limits. What an RTX 3060 has is largely unimportant.

This is all about consoles, cuz they define a generation. Ever moreso in the multiplatform age.

And you're not thinking straight, there comes a point where giving something more RAM doesn't offer any benefit.

They would likely benefit from more memory bandwidth rather than RAM.

And if consoles dictate game ambitions and generational limits why do we have path tracing on PC? Why did we have ray on PC years before consoles even had the hardware for them to do it?

Consoles don't dictate as much as people think.
 
You are doing that classic PC gamer thing of not realizing that consoles dictate game ambitions and generational limits. What an RTX 3060 has is largely unimportant.

This is all about consoles, cuz they define a generation. Ever moreso in the multiplatform age.
During a time in which memory was being riddled with texture assets this was more important. With high speed SSDs and being able to fetch assets nearly at call, you only need to keep in memory that which you need to render. The rest of the space will be render buffers and BVH trees; in which providing more space than buffers and BVH a GPU can compute would be considered overkill.
 
I think in general it's fair to say consoles largely dictate game ambitions and limits for developers.

However, we're now in a time where PC hardware development largely dictates future console hardware.

Thus, you have games in general being built around console level specs, and you have new consoles adopting technologies which are brought to market first on PC.
 
next-gen should target 1080p60 upscaled to 4k so all of the rendering power can be put towards more complex algorithms instead of raw pixel counts and VRAM requirements can stay relatively flat.

🍿

Back to DF, I'm really interested to see what they get out of PresentMon. I've played around with it. It seems cool. Personally haven't found a ton of use for it, but I can see how it would be more useful for in-depth reviewing. I do think it's overall a bit nicer than other overlays. I do like being able to see cpu busy (ms) and gpu busy (ms) in games that don't have comprehensive in-game statistics. I was surprised that even Helldivers 2 pretty much can give you all of this info in-game if you enable the undocumented overlay.
 
I think in general it's fair to say consoles largely dictate game ambitions and limits for developers.
But how true is this? I think it’s very simplistic to state that, "consoles dictate game ambitions," when the single biggest factor is budget. After that, you got other aspects such as dev time, game design, genre, and a slew of other things that impact ambitions.

Additionally, most games are also made to run on low-end PCs and last-gen consoles. We’re still seeing cross-gen games to this day and you also have the little Series S as the lowest common denominator. That consoles have a lot of weight when it comes to game development decisions is 100% true, but in this day and age, I’m not sure it’s accurate to state that they dictate ambitions.

Exclusives? Sure. The rest? Yeah, not sold on this as games barely take advantage of the custom I/O of these consoles, still lots of slow assets streaming and texture pop-ins, and we still see tons of single-threaded games that run poorly on their CPUs. Taking advantage of all these things requires time and budget and this is what actually dictates a game’s ambition today.

There’s a reason DD2 runs like trash on every platform and that’s because they had a budget and deadline to respect.
 
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I think in general it's fair to say consoles largely dictate game ambitions and limits for developers.

This isn't the case anymore since the 360 era. Even then, when you look at the second half of that gen, every AAA ran like the most hilarious shit on consoles. Was Battlefield 3 dictated by consoles ? With its reduced number of players and visuals ? Was Far Cry 3 when it was running with 10 frames per second ? How about Skyrim when it ran with ZERO frames on ps3 ? PC is the largest gaming platform in the world for years now. Games routinelly sell the majority of their copies on Steam. PC was the number 1 platform in Europe for 2023 according to GSD data. Just this year we had 2 phenomenons with Pallworld and Helldivers. What are the devs going to do with their next game ? Pallworld will look at the near 20 million copies sold on steam vs the peanuts it sold on xbox. Are they gonna focus on consoles or PC ? How about Helldivers ? When devs look how they sold 75% on Steam, where are they gonna focus next ? On console ? With xbox diminishing further in the future and xbox focusing on being the biggest publisher, i suspect games are gonna lean even further against the platform that makes them the most sales. And thats not consoles. The last step we have to overcome is the innertia some publishers have.
 
Imagine if the XB1/PS4 era were limited to just 4GB instead of 8GB. Games would have been necessarily limited in their detail and fidelity, especially in the second half of the generation when most all the most impressive games properly using the potential of the consoles came out.
Yes, there's a minimum below which you suffer. Now imaging PS4 with 2 TB of RAM. What would that gain it over 200 GB? Or that over 32 GB? You'd be adding cost with no tangible gains. There's a curve of cost/reward and the RAM needs to be optimally positioned for the whole design, not just at a peak in isolation.
Devs will always want more memory. It's overhead. This means a higher ceiling to push higher fidelity assets and/or more detailed scenery. It's always, always useful.
Even if they could always use more RAM, which they can't (there'll be costs to fill RAM just as there is SDD storage - we' could be streaming far greater quality assets than we are now except they cost too much to make), we can't just add RAM without consideration of cost. How much would the more RAM cost to include, and what measurable, tangible benefit would it actually bring? I argue that a doubling of RAM price will bring a 3% improvement to games - SSD isn't being taxed at all yet. Need for cached data is limited. Processing power is already saturated with current workloads. etc. If you can present a good argument that a doubling of RAM price brings at least a doubling in game quality, you'll make a case for more RAM, and for that you'll need to point out what in a game is RAM limited and why the SSDs can't pick up that slack. Only thing I can think of at the moment is acceleration structures.
 
Back to DF, I'm really interested to see what they get out of PresentMon. I've played around with it. It seems cool. Personally haven't found a ton of use for it, but I can see how it would be more useful for in-depth reviewing. I do think it's overall a bit nicer than other overlays. I do like being able to see cpu busy (ms) and gpu busy (ms) in games that don't have comprehensive in-game statistics. I was surprised that even Helldivers 2 pretty much can give you all of this info in-game if you enable the undocumented overlay.

I checked it out hoping to see the new GPU wait stats but seems that statistic is only available in the CSV capture. Is there any way to enable it in the overlay or is that coming in a future version?
 
I checked it out hoping to see the new GPU wait stats but seems that statistic is only available in the CSV capture. Is there any way to enable it in the overlay or is that coming in a future version?

Yah, you can enable cpu wait and gpu wait in the overlay. You can show an average or a raw number (plus other options), and you can graph it.

I don't use gpu wait or cpu wait. Maybe I should. Don't know. I basically just plot gpu and cpu busy relative to the total frame time. I use all raw stats instead of the averages. Then I can pretty easily see which of cpu or gpu is causing a frame time spike.

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What's going on with Microsoft's new game preservation team and commitment to forward compatibility? Alex, Rich and Oliver rake over the details - such as they are. Meanwhile, there's discussion over Fallout 4's upcoming current-gen upgrade, while the new Star Wars Outlaws story trailer gets the DF breakdown. And with FSR 3 frame-gen coming to consoles with Immortals of Aveum, what sort of expectation level should be set?

0:00:00 Introduction and DF Merch
0:01:39 News 01: Xbox establishes game preservation team
0:20:26 News 02: Fallout 4 getting current gen upgrade
0:30:03 News 03: Star Wars Outlaws story trailer drops
0:46:10 News 04: Dead Space is dead!
0:53:56 News 05: Immortals of Aveum gets FSR 3 boost on consoles
1:08:29 Supporter Q1: Can you get console-like convenience on a PC?
1:16:12 Supporter Q2: Is the PS5 Pro’s CPU boost enough to bring a 30fps game to 40fps?
1:20:23 Supporter Q3: Are modern games too ‘fake’, with their reliance on upsampling and frame gen?
1:26:40 Supporter Q4: Could RT be losing traction with upcoming games?
1:34:38 Supporter Q5: Could Microsoft launch a Series S-matching handheld this holiday season?
1:42:06 Supporter Q6: What does Microsoft mean when they claim the next Xbox will have the biggest tech leap in a generation?
1:52:06 Supporter Q7: Should we be happy that more games are targeting 30fps on the consoles?
1:57:57 Supporter Q8: How powerful will the Switch 2 be relative to the Steam Deck and Series S?
 
I think in general it's fair to say consoles largely dictate game ambitions and limits for developers.
during the PS2-PS3 era console technology was in some aspects a step ahead and dictated a lot of trends, not only from a development perspective but also the adoption of DVD discs, the HD era and HDMI connections instead of VGA, and so on and so forth.

As of late the tables have turned. Even an original concept like detachable controllers like the Switch, existed already --not to mention palmtops and handhelds like the Atari Portfolio that existed since the very late 80s- as indicated in the article below.

 
I'm getting the sense of survival bias that DF might be refusing to acknowledge that the biggest threat to HW RT is virtual geometry when we consider that developers have yet to REALLY abuse it's extensions (world space offset/displacement/skinning) so having hardware implementations support streaming offline generated acceleration structures isn't going to be enough anymore. Pretty soon, you'll need to implement dedicated HW BVH builders to even have a chance at ray tracing against advanced extensions to virtual geometry at real-time performance ...

Another possible abuse point is that I have yet to see games implement more advanced material systems like substrate (still in development) where sending the entire substrate tree to the payload data structure for ray tracing will lead to extremely high register pressure resulting in poor occupancy. For hardware lumen, they had to do a bit of cheating (quality loss) for performance reasons by doing a simplification of the substrate tree ...
 
I'm getting the sense of survival bias that DF might be refusing to acknowledge that the biggest threat to HW RT is virtual geometry when we consider that developers have yet to REALLY abuse it's extensions (world space offset/displacement/skinning) so having hardware implementations support streaming offline generated acceleration structures isn't going to be enough anymore. Pretty soon, you'll need to implement dedicated HW BVH builders to even have a chance at ray tracing against advanced extensions to virtual geometry at real-time performance ...

Another possible abuse point is that I have yet to see games implement more advanced material systems like substrate (still in development) where sending the entire substrate tree to the payload data structure for ray tracing will lead to extremely high register pressure resulting in poor occupancy. For hardware lumen, they had to do a bit of cheating (quality loss) for performance reasons by doing a simplification of the substrate tree ...
Sounds like simplifications will continue to be used in HWRT then until hardware evolves if that is the case (staggered update, simpler materials, lesser geo). It is not like the SWRT in Lumen/any other game is going to be attempting to maintain material/geometric parity with primary view once these things go online for AAA games.
 
Sounds like simplifications will continue to be used in HWRT then until hardware evolves if that is the case (staggered update, simpler materials, lesser geo). It is not like the SWRT in Lumen/any other game is going to be attempting to maintain material/geometric parity with primary view once these things go online for AAA games.
I don't think just materials or geometry will be the only challenge. How do we ever hope to integrate ray tracing with volumetric rendering ? (much like UE5's heterogeneous volumes) Or what about rendering more advanced translucency/scattering models ?

Do we have those systems disconnected from ray tracing as well ?
 
Pretty soon, you'll need to implement dedicated HW BVH builders to even have a chance at ray tracing against advanced extensions to virtual geometry at real-time performance ...

They have existed in mobile space for some years now and I expect them in PC GPU's soon.
 
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But how true is this? I think it’s very simplistic to state that, "consoles dictate game ambitions," when the single biggest factor is budget. After that, you got other aspects such as dev time, game design, genre, and a slew of other things that impact ambitions.

Additionally, most games are also made to run on low-end PCs and last-gen consoles. We’re still seeing cross-gen games to this day and you also have the little Series S as the lowest common denominator. That consoles have a lot of weight when it comes to game development decisions is 100% true, but in this day and age, I’m not sure it’s accurate to state that they dictate ambitions.

Exclusives? Sure. The rest? Yeah, not sold on this as games barely take advantage of the custom I/O of these consoles, still lots of slow assets streaming and texture pop-ins, and we still see tons of single-threaded games that run poorly on their CPUs. Taking advantage of all these things requires time and budget and this is what actually dictates a game’s ambition today.

There’s a reason DD2 runs like trash on every platform and that’s because they had a budget and deadline to respect.
I believe it to be true in a general sense. When we're talking about the most ambitious developers, clearly were talking about developers with big budgets. Those games typically need to release on all platforms.. and thus the hardware limitations of the consoles will have bearing on the overall ambition of the dev teams. They'll test around to get an idea of what is possible on the new hardware, and then design around that as a base. From there, they'll look at what PC hardware support they can get away with and depending on their budget and time, they try to scale the game to hit as wide of an array of PC hardware as possible.

Time and budget definitely have an affect on ambition, but in reality the hardware has to be able to allow them to realize it. Budgets go up each hardware generation, because ambitions raise each time they get more memory, or more processing power, or faster I/O.. ect ect.

I mean, just look at SSDs. PCs have had SSDs for ages, and there were no games that were built to take advantage of them. Games simply loaded faster because the CPU could go all out... but there were no changes in game design possibilities until consoles made it standard.
 
This isn't the case anymore since the 360 era. Even then, when you look at the second half of that gen, every AAA ran like the most hilarious shit on consoles. Was Battlefield 3 dictated by consoles ? With its reduced number of players and visuals ? Was Far Cry 3 when it was running with 10 frames per second ? How about Skyrim when it ran with ZERO frames on ps3 ? PC is the largest gaming platform in the world for years now. Games routinelly sell the majority of their copies on Steam. PC was the number 1 platform in Europe for 2023 according to GSD data. Just this year we had 2 phenomenons with Pallworld and Helldivers. What are the devs going to do with their next game ? Pallworld will look at the near 20 million copies sold on steam vs the peanuts it sold on xbox. Are they gonna focus on consoles or PC ? How about Helldivers ? When devs look how they sold 75% on Steam, where are they gonna focus next ? On console ? With xbox diminishing further in the future and xbox focusing on being the biggest publisher, i suspect games are gonna lean even further against the platform that makes them the most sales. And thats not consoles. The last step we have to overcome is the innertia some publishers have.
Believe it or not, I believe all of those games were limited in ambition and scope even on PC...because they had to get them to work on PS3 and 360.
 
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