Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2024]

[Scott_Arm]

Lol, Cyberpunk is 89/150 ms of input lag NATIVE at 60/30 fps! That is horrible, but definitely better than adding an additional 50-60 ms for cloud. Would have nice to see what his latency to the servers was.

Image quality is terrible, but extra terrible on xcloud.

If I had to game on cloud, I'd just stop gaming and do something else.

 

[Davros]

Yeah UE4 is a travesty.

Why? I've played several games using it like Asseto Corsa Competizione, Atomic Heart, Days Gone, Borderlands 3, Dead Island 2 ect and they all looked fine

 

[Seanspeed]

Why? I've played several games using it like Asseto Corsa Competizione, Atomic Heart, Days Gone, Borderlands 3, Dead Island 2 ect and they all looked fine

Alex is being a bit hyperbolic, but as somebody who makes it their job to inspect technical elements and play PC versions of games, I can absolutely see why he's got a distaste for it. While certain games have been better than others, it's pretty obvious UE4 has limitations and issues, especially for PC ports.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Alex is being a bit hyperbolic, but as somebody who makes it their job to inspect technical elements and play PC versions of games, I can absolutely see why he's got a distaste for it. While certain games have been better than others, it's pretty obvious UE4 has limitations and issues, especially for PC ports.

For me, it's a "forest for the trees" thing. Sure, it has limitations (EVERY engine does), but there are too many fun/great games made with UE4 to call it a travesty. The whole point of an engine is to make fun engaging games. Yah, Sifu has some stutters when you open doors and it loads the next area. They never affect gameplay. Anyone that's skipping out just because it's a UE4 game is missing out.

 

[Seanspeed]

For me, it's a "forest for the trees" thing. Sure, it has limitations (EVERY engine does), but there are too many fun/great games made with UE4 to call it a travesty. The whole point of an engine is to make fun engaging games. Yah, Sifu has some stutters when you open doors and it loads the next area. They never affect gameplay. Anyone that's skipping out just because it's a UE4 game is missing out.

Most would agree with you generally, absolutely, but again, in light of Alex's job and his particular sensitivities, his own personal feelings towards UE4 are fairly understandable.

I also dont really agree that certain issues 'never affect gameplay'. UE4 titles are known for having stuttering issues, which can absolutely manifest in more damaging ways at times.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's state of cloud gaming on console right now. For the cost of the PlayStation Plus Premium tier, overall, Sony's approach does have fewer issues. It gives us a more authentic experience, with a 4K presentation and a version of the game that's more comparable to an actual PS5. The higher latency compared to Xbox is a disappointment, but then, Xbox Cloud Gaming's issues are perhaps more impactful: a lower bitrate and resolution, heavier compression, and most importantly, the lack of parity with Series X features and performance. The Xbox Cloud Gaming service is simply not on the same level as PS Plus cloud streaming in terms of quality, as it stands today.

I'm somewhat surprised PS streaming is better quality than GP streaming. I can only assume that's a cost-cutting measure for lower operational costs?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Most would agree with you generally, absolutely, but again, in light of Alex's job and his particular sensitivities, his own personal feelings towards UE4 are fairly understandable.

I also dont really agree that certain issues 'never affect gameplay'. UE4 titles are known for having stuttering issues, which can absolutely manifest in more damaging ways at times.

I said it didn't affect gameplay in Sifu. I didn't say anything about other games. What I meant that despite some of the common technical issues of UE4 in the case of Sifu it doesn't matter. If you skip on Sifu because it's UE4, you're making a mistake. If you skip on Sifu because it's not your style of game, then that's a different story. There are lots of great UE4 games. They're all different. That's why I think calling UE4 a travesty is missing the forest for the trees.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

I'm somewhat surprised PS streaming is better quality than GP streaming. I can only assume that's a cost-cutting measure for lower operational costs?

Seems like it, basically allocating a series S-level console instance instead of SX. Frankly this should be embarrassing to MS, considering their vast cloud infrastructure resources and how long they've been pushing this.

More like S-Cloud, amirite people

 

[Scott_Arm]

Seems like it, basically allocating a series S-level console instance instead of SX. Frankly this should be embarrassing to MS, considering their vast cloud infrastructure resources and how long they've been pushing this.

More like S-Cloud, amirite people

If I had to guess, cloud streaming is probably a money loser, right? Most likely just cutting corners to minimize losses. It's probably like taking a small piece of every Game Pass subscription and setting it on fire.

 

[Riddlewire]

That is an extreme amount of latency.
Unplayable in any fast-paced action game.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Why? I've played several games using it like Asseto Corsa Competizione, Atomic Heart, Days Gone, Borderlands 3, Dead Island 2 ect and they all looked fine

This is true, there are plenty of UE4 games that run quite well - it's definitely possible to craft a well performing game in that engine. While shader stuttering isn't the only form of stutters you can get with it, there are also a good number of games that shipped with horrible shader stuttering that while perhaps not delivering as consistent performance as a title made in the ReEngine, were still vastly improved with a small patch to add 30secs - 1 minute of precompiling at bootup ( no doubt helped in this endeavor by DF's critique). Sackboy, High on Life, The Ascent, Psychonauts 2, and others all shipped relatively quickly with precompiling patches.

Which makes it all the more frustrating when this basic step is not even attempted with some titles - such as FF Remake Intergrade (albeit in DX11 mode it's not that bad, but still not due to any attention Square Enix gave the problem). It's maddening when you see a good chunk of the 'solution' can be performed before the opening credits have finished rolling. We all know the limits of UE's PSO gathering process by now yes, but 90% coverage is a fuckton better than 0.

But I gotta say...Borderlands 3?! I don't think that really belongs in that list, that title has horrendous shader stuttering and no precompiling stage (well, one that works), the variety of worlds and effects means that it never truly abates - you'll get stutters hours into gameplay. You think you've compiled all the shaders with all your weapon types, then transport to a new environment and whoops - that means all new PSO's now! Thankfully, DXVK-Async largely saves it. Here's what it looks like with a 60fps cap on a fresh shader cache, ensuring settings are not GPU-bound at any point:

D3D:




DXVK Async:




Frankly at this point I figure I might just stop asking smaller devs to just add a precompiling step, my only request now would be to ask them to "Please look for the NVAPI in the game's folder first before referencing the system installed dll", so you can use DLSS with DXVK (thank you, Hellblade Enhanced devs - almost makes up for the awful settings bug you introduced).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Could Sony's service relate to this:

Sony Interactive Entertainment to Acquire iSIZE

We are thrilled to announce that Sony Interactive Entertainment LLC (“SIE”) has entered into an agreement to acquire iSIZE, a UK-based company specializing in deep learning for video delivery. iSIZE builds AI-powered solutions to deliver bitrate savings and quality improvements for the media and...

sonyinteractive.com

Could we be looking at some AI algorithms which decrease BW, saving costs, at the increase of latency?

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Bear in mind on

Most would agree with you generally, absolutely, but again, in light of Alex's job and his particular sensitivities, his own personal feelings towards UE4 are fairly understandable.

I also dont really agree that certain issues 'never affect gameplay'. UE4 titles are known for having stuttering issues, which can absolutely manifest in more damaging ways at times.

Also Alex is course going to want to play these games (if they offer it) with RT enabled, and that means DX12. UE4 problems are (mostly) magnified under DX12, assuming they even offer a DX11 mode for you revert to - and you lose RT in that case. DXVK can't save those titles.

 

[Remij]

Bold words for an UE4 game.

Strictly visually speaking of course.. It's certainly can't be worse

 

[Seanspeed]

I'm somewhat surprised PS streaming is better quality than GP streaming. I can only assume that's a cost-cutting measure for lower operational costs?

It seems like Sony is using actual PS5 hardware for every cloud instance/user. That's gotta be an expensive proposition and I'd be surprised if they could keep that up at scale, at least not without increasing costs for that tier of PS+.

It still pretty sorry that MS have made so much noise about their cloud tech and deliver such an inferior experience, though.

I said it didn't affect gameplay in Sifu. I didn't say anything about other games. What I meant that despite some of the common technical issues of UE4 in the case of Sifu it doesn't matter. If you skip on Sifu because it's UE4, you're making a mistake. If you skip on Sifu because it's not your style of game, then that's a different story. There are lots of great UE4 games. They're all different. That's why I think calling UE4 a travesty is missing the forest for the trees.

Yes you were talking about Sifu, but cherry picking the examples of games where UE4 isn't as much of a hindrance doesn't take away from all the games where it absolutely is an issue.

As I said, I think Alex was being hyperbolic and clearly wouldn't trash a game/port like Days Gone just cuz its UE4, but his general dislike towards UE4 is still understandable.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Could Sony's service relate to this:

Sony Interactive Entertainment to Acquire iSIZE

We are thrilled to announce that Sony Interactive Entertainment LLC (“SIE”) has entered into an agreement to acquire iSIZE, a UK-based company specializing in deep learning for video delivery. iSIZE builds AI-powered solutions to deliver bitrate savings and quality improvements for the media and...

sonyinteractive.com

Could we be looking at some AI algorithms which decrease BW, saving costs, at the increase of latency?

I thought it was kind of weird that the video said something like the xbox cloud bit rate LOOKS lower, but it never actually says what the bit rates are. I'm assuming they were testing 4k30 and 4k60, but it shouldn't have been too hard to actually measure bit rate on the network adapter if Microsoft and Sony don't say exactly what the bit rate is. There's also just different encoder settings for H264 that can drastically affect quality. The easiest answer is just xbox is using less bit rate and worse encoder settings for the same output resolution and frame rate.

 

[iroboto]

I'm somewhat surprised PS streaming is better quality than GP streaming. I can only assume that's a cost-cutting measure for lower operational costs?

Unfortunately PS Plus Premium is locked to PS5. So it’s very much just try or download type functionality. Once you know you like the game, there is virtually no reason to not download it. So it really saves you the download time. And when you’re done the first time, you download overnight.

Xcloud supports all devices, mobile, PC, Xbox consoles, and tablets. So you have to worry about the concurrency on subscribers. It has high availability across larger geographical regions. I have serious doubts that PS Plus Premium can support 1000s of concurrent streaming per region. And they don’t have to feel bad about not offering it. If you cannoy stream it, then you just download it and play it on ps5. A bit different if you’re a mobile or PC only player that doesn’t have a console to download that game to.

I don’t see MS improving the service to become more premium until they have a cloud strategy that will net them real customers that are outside the Xbox console ecosystem.

 

[Davros]

albeit in DX11 mode it's not that bad, but still not due to any attention Square Enix gave the problem

To anyone experiencing the DX12 stutter in Control try the following:

1.In Windows Settings search and open Exploit Protection
2.Click On the Program Settings Tab
3.Click On The + Add Programs To Customise
4.Click On Choose Exact File Path
5.Find Control_DX12.exe Click Open
6.Programs Settings For Game Opened ,Scroll Down To Control Flow Guard
7.Put Check Mark In Override System Settings And Turn From On To Off And Apply

It’s also worth noting that this workaround can eliminate the stuttering issues in other DX12 games too.
All you have to do is disable “Control Flow Guard” in your other DX12 games and test them yourselves.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Yeah I've seen that recommended often in forums, never really made a difference in any game I tried, regardless I'm talking about shader stuttering. The nature of DX12's shader architecture means that games without any attempt at managing it will very likely see increased shader compilation stuttering over the same game in DX11.

 

[Dictator]

The flow Control "fix" @Davros is pure BS.
People are Just seeing one Run with shaders Not Compiler, applying some snake oil fix, and then running the Game again.

That does nothing.