Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2024]

[Bludd]

DF Direct Weekly #150: Xbox Business Update, Sony Financials Reaction - Is The Future Multi-Plat?

0:00:00 Introduction
0:02:14 News 01: Microsoft explains multiplatform strategy
0:45:50 News 02: Sony: PS5 sales have peaked
1:05:22 News 03: Rich ‘downgrades’ from 8K to 4K
1:17:15 News 04: Arzette: The Jewel of Faramore released
1:23:01 Supporter Q1: Why don’t more games support Dolby Vision and HDR 10+?
1:32:41 Supporter Q2: Given the limited power of the consoles, should developers reconsider including performance modes?
1:41:16 Supporter Q3: Given Nvidia’s tech lead in GPUs, aren’t they an attractive choice for a next-gen console?
1:47:00 Supporter Q4: Can Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth’s image quality issues be fixed with a quick patch, or is there a more fundamental limit?
1:53:09 Supporter Q5: Whatever happened to the Vulkan graphics API?

 

[Riddlewire]

1:05:22 News 03: Rich ‘downgrades’ from 8K to 4K

"I was left with a tv that I couldn't actually fix."

That's quitter talk, Rich.
You should have just slapped some window tint across the right half of the screen.
Problem solved.

 

[Scott_Arm]

"I was left with a tv that I couldn't actually fix."

That's quitter talk, Rich.
You should have just slapped some window tint across the right half of the screen.
Problem solved.

This is something I hate about modern tech. A tv is something you used to be able to use for 10-20 years. There were local repair shops that could fix them. Now we have these high ends displays that are just dead after like 3 years and you have to replace them. Huge regression. Also makes me scared to jump into the higher end tv market. I'm not spending $1K+ every five years.

 

[Nesh]

This is something I hate about modern tech. A tv is something you used to be able to use for 10-20 years. There were local repair shops that could fix them. Now we have these high ends displays that are just dead after like 3 years and you have to replace them. Huge regression. Also makes me scared to jump into the higher end tv market. I'm not spending $1K+ every five years.

This regression is extremely common in many products.

Jeans for example used to last for decades. I literally "inherited" my dad's jeans at some point, and the only reason I don't have them is because they were out of fashion and gifted them. Now you are lucky if your overpriced jeans last 2 years

I used to work as a brand manager in fashion, and I could see, as China's labor costs were increasing, that more brands were looking for cheaper alternatives to maintain margins. Petroleum derivatives increased as percentages in the fabric composition.

In terms of electronics, the original walkmans and discmans were very resilient devices. We had TVs that lasted for decades, and threw them away only to replace them with newer tech, not because they stopped working.

Furniture are built with cheap wood. Various household devices is prone to break in 2 to 3 years after the warranty expires.

Quality builds are becoming too expensive and so are cheap materials that are only relatively more affordable. Go for the actual affordable and you will be paying very fast for replacements

And I don't want to go to the quality of food.

There is something inherently wrong going on with the current economic debt based system were everyone is trying to maximize profits simultaneously

 

[Remij]

DF Direct Weekly #150: Xbox Business Update, Sony Financials Reaction - Is The Future Multi-Plat?

0:00:00 Introduction
0:02:14 News 01: Microsoft explains multiplatform strategy
0:45:50 News 02: Sony: PS5 sales have peaked
1:05:22 News 03: Rich ‘downgrades’ from 8K to 4K
1:17:15 News 04: Arzette: The Jewel of Faramore released
1:23:01 Supporter Q1: Why don’t more games support Dolby Vision and HDR 10+?
1:32:41 Supporter Q2: Given the limited power of the consoles, should developers reconsider including performance modes?
1:41:16 Supporter Q3: Given Nvidia’s tech lead in GPUs, aren’t they an attractive choice for a next-gen console?
1:47:00 Supporter Q4: Can Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth’s image quality issues be fixed with a quick patch, or is there a more fundamental limit?
1:53:09 Supporter Q5: Whatever happened to the Vulkan graphics API?

Nice to see John say what I've been saying here for along time. Microsoft's future console should essentially be a consolized PC. It should have the ability to run the Xbox console OS/UI, have all the backwards compatibility that entails and sideload into PC and Steam as well.

Microsoft has the unique advantage to target both Xbox faithful, as well as PC gamers looking for a console style box that plays all of their PC Steam library. That's a massive advantage.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Not a State of the Economy thread.

 

[iroboto]

Nice to see John say what I've been saying here for along time. Microsoft's future console should essentially be a consolized PC. It should have the ability to run the Xbox console OS/UI, have all the backwards compatibility that entails and sideload into PC and Steam as well.

Microsoft has the unique advantage to target both Xbox faithful, as well as PC gamers looking for a console style box that plays all of their PC Steam library. That's a massive advantage.

It’s their best value proposition. They have best of both worlds here; just work on the OS to accomplish it. Licensing might be a small factor.

Outsource the SoC and main design, let others have a run at it to build if they aren’t willing to do it.

Run it as the newest surface line, or let 3rd parties build laptops around it

 

[Remij]

It’s their best value proposition. They have best of both worlds here; just work on the OS to accomplish it.

Exactly. This way, they can still put out a console with their storefront/Gamepass as the main draw in for all the millions out there who have spent years building up their Xbox libraries... but also capture the PC side who might be interested in a cheaper console style box with a nice sleek frontend which can play their Steam games and so forth.

Obviously they need amazing software to sell hardware.. but I think there's much to be said about simply having the best features/value proposition out there.. and Microsoft is quite frankly in a position to easily offer the best features, while simultaneously ensuring proper backwards compatibility for their ecosystem.

And going even further here... imagine an Xbox, which also plays you PC library... but that also allows for downloadable shader packs for them as well, ala Steam Deck.. Microsoft could literally deliver this type of device for gamers. It would be an unprecedented value, it would play Xbox/PC AND Playstation games (through Steam)... It would be insanely cool, just like the Steam Deck already is.

 

[iroboto]

Exactly. This way, they can still put out a console with their storefront/Gamepass as the main draw in for all the millions out there who have spent years building up their Xbox libraries... but also capture the PC side who might be interested in a cheaper console style box with a nice sleek frontend which can play their Steam games and so forth.

Obviously they need amazing software to sell hardware.. but I think there's much to be said about simply having the best features/value proposition out there.. and Microsoft is quite frankly in a position to easily offer the best features, while simultaneously ensuring proper backwards compatibility for their ecosystem.

And going even further here... imagine an Xbox, which also plays you PC library... but that also allows for downloadable shader packs for them as well, ala Steam Deck.. Microsoft could literally deliver this type of device for gamers. It would be an unprecedented value, it would play Xbox/PC AND Playstation games (through Steam)... It would be insanely cool, just like the Steam Deck already is.

Oh. I don’t mean a dedicated gaming device. People are willing to spend $1000 - $2000 on laptops and so forth. If you’re going to buy a chrome book and a console that’s already $1000. Why not just have a singular device that can act as both.

Consoles lose their longevity quickly when there are no games to play or a new generation is announced. It wouldn’t suffer from those drawbacks if that device was also running windows and was a capable laptop.

Having said that though, PC is already there with Xbox day 1 games. All they need is standardization to ensure a baseline level of expected performance.

Edit; seems like we are referring to the same thing. My bad

 

[Riddlewire]

They could test the waters by offering a "use at your own risk" online coversion of Xbox One consoles to an optimized version of Windows. They wouldn't have to commit to anything for the future. But it would let them see if such a device functioned in a way that people would want and to detect all the problem areas involved with the ecosystem.
Even though it's old, I'm sure an Xbox One S could run PC software from around the time of the 7th/8th gen transition.
They would definitely have to rework Windows, though. It would kill those HDDs.
It might prevent a bunch of old console hardware from becoming E-waste.

 

[Cyan]

DF Direct Weekly #150: Xbox Business Update, Sony Financials Reaction - Is The Future Multi-Plat?

0:00:00 Introduction
0:02:14 News 01: Microsoft explains multiplatform strategy
0:45:50 News 02: Sony: PS5 sales have peaked
1:05:22 News 03: Rich ‘downgrades’ from 8K to 4K
1:17:15 News 04: Arzette: The Jewel of Faramore released
1:23:01 Supporter Q1: Why don’t more games support Dolby Vision and HDR 10+?
1:32:41 Supporter Q2: Given the limited power of the consoles, should developers reconsider including performance modes?
1:41:16 Supporter Q3: Given Nvidia’s tech lead in GPUs, aren’t they an attractive choice for a next-gen console?
1:47:00 Supporter Q4: Can Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth’s image quality issues be fixed with a quick patch, or is there a more fundamental limit?
1:53:09 Supporter Q5: Whatever happened to the Vulkan graphics API?

shrewd shrewd Phil... Philnoccio is at it again. Yeah DF staff pointed it out already, they say things that keep everyone happy but we know that they just turned on the tap. It was a formal act, sweetened, sugar-coated and corporatist. "I don't rule out, but I don't confirm either... I don't give names, but....". Still, Xbox community might remain optimistic, at least they are going to keep making (exclusive) games that are going to be on gamepass day 1 and and stuff.

 

[iroboto]

shrewd shrewd Phil... Philnoccio is at it again. Yeah DF staff pointed it out already, they say things that keep everyone happy but we know that they just turned on the tap. It was a formal act, sweetened, sugar-coated and corporatist. "I don't rule out, but I don't confirm either... I don't give names, but....". Still, Xbox community might remain optimistic, at least they are going to keep making (exclusive) games that are going to be on gamepass day 1 and and stuff.

The tap was opened as soon as it moved to PC. Moving games to Sony is nothing more than a formality.

There is reluctance to move games to PC by Sony day 1. If it happens, there will be a boom in compatible handhelds, laptops, PCs that have access to both libraries day 1. Having Xbox games on PS isnt going to make them the dominant device.

 

[Cyan]

Nice to see John say what I've been saying here for along time. Microsoft's future console should essentially be a consolized PC. It should have the ability to run the Xbox console OS/UI, have all the backwards compatibility that entails and sideload into PC and Steam as well.

Microsoft has the unique advantage to target both Xbox faithful, as well as PC gamers looking for a console style box that plays all of their PC Steam library. That's a massive advantage.

that would be so awesome. Microsoft have missed many opportunities.., look at Steam now and their position on the market, they have loads of money. Valve didn't have much to work with, unlike MS, but created an impressive platform for gaming over time, and now they even have hardware. As cool as the Steam Deck is, it runs under Linux which is really really worse than Windows at gaming. (no HDR, lots of Proton stuff taking extra stuff, incompatibilites and so on and so forth)

A console PC from MS, totally transparent for the user to play any game as if it was a regular console, and allowing know-how people to go deeper and add mods that improve any game (I wouldn't play Elden Ring without mods for instance) and stuff manually, or some productivity, but only for those who really want to fiddle, would make up for a great device.

I know of 100% console gamers who wouldn't touch a PC that bought a Steam Deck and treat it like a console, they know that it is an actual PC but it behaves like a console for them and they are happy owners of the device.

 

[chris1515]

Great for the resolution bump talk

 

[cheapchips]

As cool as the Steam Deck is, it runs under Linux which is really really worse than Windows at gaming. (no HDR, lots of Proton stuff taking extra stuff, incompatibilites and so on and so forth)

Do you actually have a Deck? My experience is there's a few things I might want to play but can't, but that's out of a huge library. Most new stuff runs just fine. Features like the shader cache are brilliant features Windows can only dream of! Coupling the Deck's little SoC with Linux seems to have ended up as more of a benefit than a hindrance.

It also supports HDR these days, because SteamOS improves all the time, but not sure if that's in the main release yet.

 

[davis.anthony]

0:02:14 News 01: Microsoft explains multiplatform strategy

John asked how to make Gamepass appealing?

The answer is simply in my opinion, create a small development studio who's goal is to port older games over to modern Windows API and add them on to Gamepass.

I tried PC Gamepass once and the best games on there for me was the Medal Of Honor Collection.

If Microsoft can make Gamepass to best place to play new and retro games, that would be something I would be interested in.

And make exclusive PC classics available on Xbox with controller support, The games don't have to have a full on remaster ala Blue Point style.

Imagine F.E.A.R, ported to modern Windows and DirectX, running on Xbox Series X at native 4k@120fps.

Even the S.T.A.L.K.E.R games which never got a console release, get them ported to DX12 and modern Windows and on PC and Xbox Gamepass.

There's a service I can get behind.

 

[cheapchips]

And make exclusive PC classics available on Xbox with controller support, The games don't have to have a full on remaster ala Blue Point style.

It's another area where Valve have ultimately ended up doing a great job. Steam input / community templates / Deck trackpads cover a lot of ground on PC title control.

 

[Cyan]

Do you actually have a Deck? My experience is there's a few things I might want to play but can't, but that's out of a huge library. Most new stuff runs just fine. Features like the shader cache are brilliant features Windows can only dream of! Coupling the Deck's little SoC with Linux seems to have ended up as more of a benefit than a hindrance.

It also supports HDR these days, because SteamOS improves all the time, but not sure if that's in the main release yet.

well, I don't. Tbh, I didn't know about the shader cache feature -a Proton thing, I guess-. It's not that I don't think newer games won't run on Deci, it's just that quite a few of my favourite games on Steam failed for one reason or the other when running them under Linux. If they didn't fail, you just had to constantly play with the "correct" Proton version to get a game working. Proton needed a lot of space for every game.

That and the fact that with a very few exceptions the games ran worse than on Windows, or the lack of HDR so I didn't get to use all the features of my screen, or that setting up GoG games was a very difficult task, also not being able to use PC Gamepass...

Additionally, I am not a big fan of Steam, although I appreciate the amazing store they have and it's much better than any other. I just want freedom, and the fact that they use a totally open source OS like Linux to lock the hardware as much as possible don't sit well with me, I couldn't care less about Valve.

 

[Cyan]

John asked how to make Gamepass appealing?

The answer is simply in my opinion, create a small development studio who's goal is to port older games over to modern Windows API and add them on to Gamepass.

I tried PC Gamepass once and the best games on there for me was the Medal Of Honor Collection.

If Microsoft can make Gamepass to best place to play new and retro games, that would be something I would be interested in.

And make exclusive PC classics available on Xbox with controller support, The games don't have to have a full on remaster ala Blue Point style.

Imagine F.E.A.R, ported to modern Windows and DirectX, running on Xbox Series X at native 4k@120fps.

Even the S.T.A.L.K.E.R games which never got a console release, get them ported to DX12 and modern Windows and on PC and Xbox Gamepass.

There's a service I can get behind.

man, that's a great idea. I'd give you a hug

 

[cheapchips]

Additionally, I am not a big fan of Steam, although I appreciate the amazing store they have and it's much better than any other. I just want freedom, and the fact that they use a totally open source OS like Linux to lock the hardware as much as possible don't sit well with me, I couldn't care less about Valve.

The rabid fandom of an online store over all others is one of those Internet oddities.

Valve's approach to Linux is pretty open. Wine / Proton are open source and they've been majorly contributing to that.

On the Deck, you can drop into Desktop mode from the Steam frontend and it's just KDE Plasma. From there you can install Epic, emulators or whatever. Add apps/games as a shortcut in Steam and they appear on the 'console' front end too.

SteamOS is really nothing like what Apple, Google, Sony and countless others have done with Linux/Unix on their devices.

It does feel like MS could build a Windows gaming frontend that would work even better, since they don't have the compatibility layer challenge. They hadn't even started as of the FTC trial though. They better get a move on!