Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Now... if everyone waits for a game to be fixed... and let's be real.. if a game has issues at launch, PC gamers move on to the next thing and *if* publishers are lucky they'll catch them during a sale down the line.
You said this before. If a game launches in a poor state, isn't this behaviour what you want to promote? This will motivate publishers to change behaviour and only release games in a better state.

You keep flipping from the consumer perspective and the publisher perspective. I'm only coming at this from a consumer.
 
You said this before. If a game launches in a poor state, isn't this behaviour what you want to promote? This will motivate publishers to change behaviour and only release games in a better state.

You keep flipping from the consumer perspective and the publisher perspective. I'm only coming at this from a consumer.
I said it's complicated for a reason lol =P

In that case, what would be preventing the publisher from simply assuming that there is no interest, or that PC gamers are simply cheap? Because I GUARANTEE YOU that is what they will assume if nobody is giving them grief about performance issues.

Do you see what I mean? This is why I say it's important that they know exactly why people aren't buying the game. A very clear message. Buying the game, playing it, testing it, communicating issues, and ultimately refunding it explaining clearly that it's due to technical issues... is the clearest way to get through to them directly while at the same time showing them that the interest was there since launch.

Does that make sense? Like, I understand what you're saying.. we both want the same outcome, but I think it's important to go about it a very specific way to deliver a very specific message. If I didn't care about PC gaming at all, I'd simply say don't buy the titles period. However as a PC gamer, you want to ensure your platform continues to get games, while at the same time holding developers accountable for releasing unacceptable products at launch and fixing them later.. so it requires more tact than just "don't buy it".
 
I said it's complicated for a reason lol =P
It's complicated if you're trying to reconcile the problem from two irreconcilable positions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you want games to launch with less technical issues which requires publishers to fund developers for as long as is necessary to release games in a state that you (and others) feel satisfactory. Publishers are financially motivated to sell games in a technical state that will not undermine the initial development investment - because spending the least amount of money as possible for any successful product is the goal.

Perhaps if we agree to look at this from different positions, you want to send a message and I am looking at the endgame where publishers accept launching games with issues will impact sales
 
It's complicated if you're trying to reconcile the problem from two irreconcilable positions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you want games to launch with less technical issues which requires publishers to fund developers for as long as is necessary to release games in a state that you (and others) feel satisfactory. Publishers are financially motivated to sell games in a technical state that will not undermine the initial development investment - because spending the least amount of money as possible for any successful product is the goal.

Perhaps if we agree to look at this from different positions, you want to send a message and I am looking at the endgame where publishers accept launching games with issues will impact sales
id say its fine for crossgen or multiplat games to realease with some bugs or performance issues and patched later, but i feel its criminal for first party games, exlcusives targeting one machine for example forbidden west releasing with a blurry performance mode and grass popin bugs, halo infinite in that state and how it looked, some nintendo switch only games with horrid performance, i just dont quite get how developers could release such games or any exclusive games in such states when theyve had years to work on just a specific machine. PC games and multiplats are another question that i think will always be broken and never solved.

Games will only get bigger, cpu memory requirements will keep getting bigger therefore more shaders problems on pc more bugs to fix more memory problems to optimise i cant imagine having to develop lets say gta6 to work on a series x and ps5, support midrange to high end pc's and also deliver a seamless experience on series s, cyberpunk was the start of the more common broken games to come and itll get worse i think the steps sony took to remove cyberpunk from the playstore for bugs and performance reasons until it was well optimised to be put on the store was harsh but maybe the right thing to do. Pc and xbox should do the same.
 
id say its fine for crossgen or multiplat games to realease with some bugs or performance issues and patched later, but i feel its criminal for first party games, exlcusives targeting one machine for example forbidden west releasing with a blurry performance mode and grass popin bugs, halo infinite in that state and how it looked, some nintendo switch only games with horrid performance, i just dont quite get how developers could release such games or any exclusive games in such states when theyve had years to work on just a specific machine. PC games and multiplats are another question that i think will always be broken and never solved.
My experience on a pure technical level with Halo Infinite was better than Elden Ring, but ER won game of the year from many publications and events. Clearly just the technical performance isn't the only criteria by which games are judged.
 
My experience on a pure technical level with Halo Infinite was better than Elden Ring, but ER won game of the year from many publications and events. Clearly just the technical performance isn't the only criteria by which games are judged.
halo infinite performed better than elden ring but as i said thats what you would expect from a first party game focused on one platform but halo infinite's Achilles hill is how it looked people expected much better from a first party game they wanted to play on their brand new series x consoles but the way halo infinite looked was dissapointing some even say halo 4 had much better art direction and overall look, in short infinite looked flat and elden ring even though performs like shit it got a pass because people enjoyed playing it, some companies get a pass no matter how bad their game performs sometimes life isnt fair but its how it is especially japanese companies everything comes second to fun and gameplay
 
halo infinite performed better than elden ring but as i said thats what you would expect from a first party game focused on one platform but halo infinite's Achilles hill is how it looked people expected much better from a first party game they wanted to play on their brand new series x consoles but the way halo infinite looked was dissapointing some even say halo 4 had much better art direction and overall look, in short infinite looked flat and elden ring even though performs like shit it got a pass because people enjoyed playing it, some companies get a pass no matter how bad their game performs sometimes life isnt fair but its how it is especially japanese companies everything comes second to fun and gameplay
Halo suffered from way too much scope, and that is likely a major culprit in it's failure to deliver on several fronts.
Too many platforms
Too open world
single player campaign
esports
multiplayer modes
multiplayer co-op
split screen co-op
Forge

pretty stupid amount of scope, and I agree there were critical failures there. But programming and optimization is lower on the list of things they needed to improve on further.
 
and that is likely a major culprit in it's failure to deliver on several fronts.
Too many platforms
Too open world
single player campaign
esports
multiplayer modes
multiplayer co-op
split screen co-op
Forge
Did it really fail in all that?
Swear it was a 90+ metacritic, rated highly in both single and multiplayer.
Thought it failed in the GASS with not enough and regular content drops.

So from your list I would agree with
Multi player modes
Forge
Split screen co op

And most of those would've been ok with content drops and coming later.
 
Did it really fail in all that?
Swear it was a 90+ metacritic, rated highly in both single and multiplayer.
Thought it failed in the GASS with not enough and regular content drops.

So from your list I would agree with
Multi player modes
Forge
Split screen co op

And most of those would've been ok with content drops and coming later.
It's a good game, but it failed to critically live up to the expectations of what a flagpole tent game should look like.
There should have been a 'Ryse of Rome' type game to showcase the power of the new consoles, like they did with Order 1884, or Demon Souls. Xbox missing this was the critical failure in my opinion.
 
Halo Infinite was in development for five platforms. All of them quite different.
yes but all those platforms are using the same developing environment, direct x, gdk, horizon forbidden west came out on ps4 and ps5, spider man ps4 ps5, ragnarok ps4 ps5, gt7 ps4, ps5 and psvr2 all look good and some people even though forbidden west would be impossible on ps4 but all games perform flawless even pc ports perform good, 343 simply didnt do a top job on infinite unless there's a major tools and optimization problem on xbox platforms but that also doesnt make sense when u factor in playground games horizon 5 runs and looks like magic from xbone to series and pc
 
It's a good game, but it failed to critically live up to the expectations of what a flagpole tent game should look like.
There should have been a 'Ryse of Rome' type game to showcase the power of the new consoles, like they did with Order 1884, or Demon Souls. Xbox missing this was the critical failure in my opinion.
thats what i mean, if you put killzone 2 a ps3 game side by side with halo infinite, killzone simply looks technically and artistic better, even though ininite has much more going on per frame it all doesnt add up because of how they used the technologies and the art direction all together just adding up more pixels and polygons didnt save how it looked, and i think that is unacceptable for exclusives this day and age, now people demand top quality production with flawless gameplay and all at 60fps... times are hard
 
doesnt make sense when u factor in playground games horizon 5 runs and looks like magic from xbone to series and pc
Its a story definitely well repeated.
Bioware Mass Effect moving from UE -> Frostbyte. And of course, the largest disappointment for me, Anthem.
Just about all titles that were forced to move to frostbyte got killed
Halo moving to open world
Bungie suffered with moving the Halo engine to open world with Destiny.
As everyone tried to follow the path that Bungie made, few engines were designed for it.

There's a long history of pain when it comes to expanding some of these older engines to stretching them beyond what they were originally intended for. And a lot of that older code needed updating to be able to run efficiently with the new parameters. Quite challenging and a large factor in development hell.
 
thats what i mean, if you put killzone 2 a ps3 game side by side with halo infinite, killzone simply looks technically and artistic better, even though ininite has much more going on per frame it all doesnt add up because of how they used the technologies and the art direction all together just adding up more pixels and polygons didnt save how it looked, and i think that is unacceptable for exclusives this day and age, now people demand top quality production with flawless gameplay and all at 60fps... times are hard
It's important for us to judge games as they were designed to be. Playstation is targeting older male audience, and many of us who grew up with playstation, the games continued to cater to that market. Many of their graphics appeal to an older audience, with an aim for getting as close to realism as possible.

I think MS is trying to stay in-between Nintendo and Playstation in terms of age groups, and Halo, is this weird artistic place where it's not gritty dark, but gritty childhood not too scary type stuff. Go forward 10 years, people will still see it's stylized art as just being what the game intended to do. They won't laugh at it for how terribly unrealistic it looks; and we see this with many anime games for instance.

This is a bit different from trying to make realistic graphics, having said that, though, art direction could have been improved in subtle ways to still make the game look better. I agree with that.

I do recall when the original COD MW came out, people were blown away at how realistic it looked. But realism as an art style doesn't age very well.
 
Publishers and developers watch sales and the timing of sales closely. If people don't buy the game at launch (and the game launched buggy), and they improve performance and people do buy the game at the launch price, they will work it out.

But while people continue to blindly pre-order games and buy games before they have been reviewed, there is zero incentive for publishers not to publish games with issues.
Usually sales start well and then stop suddenly if there is an issue. Its hard to pinpoint the cause of low sales when a game doesnt sell. Is it something wrong with the game or lack of interest? You need people to buy and complain
 
It's important for us to judge games as they were designed to be. Playstation is targeting older male audience, and many of us who grew up with playstation, the games continued to cater to that market. Many of their graphics appeal to an older audience, with an aim for getting as close to realism as possible.

I think MS is trying to stay in-between Nintendo and Playstation in terms of age groups, and Halo, is this weird artistic place where it's not gritty dark, but gritty childhood not too scary type stuff. Go forward 10 years, people will still see it's stylized art as just being what the game intended to do. They won't laugh at it for how terribly unrealistic it looks; and we see this with many anime games for instance.

This is a bit different from trying to make realistic graphics, having said that, though, art direction could have been improved in subtle ways to still make the game look better. I agree with that.

I do recall when the original COD MW came out, people were blown away at how realistic it looked. But realism as an art style doesn't age very well.
its alright however the audience they are targeting but infinites art direction simply doesnt cut it, i mean nobody says it should look dark as killzone 2 thats not the point the point is why is it flat, disney caters for kids but the production and care that goes to present a childish animation film is second to none, ratchet and clank another example of a childish games looks like a pixar film, some nintendo games even though their targeted audience and low speced machine always deliver in art direction, halo infinite could have still been fun as the old school halo games and still looked beautiful, from a guy who grew up playing time splitters on ps2 days on end i believe infinite didnt get that love
 
its alright however the audience they are targeting but infinites art direction simply doesnt cut it, i mean nobody says it should look dark as killzone 2 thats not the point the point is why is it flat, disney caters for kids but the production and care that goes to present a childish animation film is second to none, ratchet and clank another example of a childish games looks like a pixar film, some nintendo games even though their targeted audience and low speced machine always deliver in art direction, halo infinite could have still been fun as the old school halo games and still looked beautiful, from a guy who grew up playing time splitters on ps2 days on end i believe infinite didnt get that love
Yea, and this is what I would criticize halo about. Animations are for general audiences, but Disney animations are incredible visual experiences.

Lighting needed to be next Gen for Halo. And it was very last gen lighting.
 
Last edited:
But if your game does not sell at launch, do you think the publisher will just chalk it up to no interest? With focus groups, surveys and what not they do during development, you think there is no "after action reports" being done on titles that do not live up to their expectations?

If a game launches in a bad state, you do not buy it, but move on, do you really care about if a sequel arrives ? I mean trailers look good, game looks fun, has a hook that realls you in, but the execution is bad. Do you really want one more game, even after 6 months of patching?
 
Yea, and this is what I would criticize halo about. Animations are for general audiences, but Disney animations are incredible visual experiences.

Lighting needed to be next Gen for Halo. And it was very last gen lighting.
it doesnt seem like they even tried on the animations! and even some last gen games had better lighting, killzone shadow fall looks miles ahead compared to infinite like theres alot of games last gen with better lighting, i dont get how it ended up looking like that, if 343 really gave everything they have and thats it! then im intrigued. Id forgive multi plat titles and small studios or the usual broken japanese dev game but first party titles are unforgivable either looking that bad or performing bad.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top