Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]

[pjbliverpool]

And they should have questioned it then and didn't. Just because a dev says something shouldn't mean you just blindly believe it

I'm sure I recall Alex questioning it on here. Maybe I'm misremembering as a lot of people have questioned it. But in any case I don't think it's their responsibility to publicly contradict devs like that without any technical evidence to back it up. Maybe they really are occasionally unloading and reloading some portions of data on camera turns on PS5, whereas on PC they may leverage bigger RAM pools for that, or just lower settings enough that it all fits in whatever RAM is available.

In any case testing all these possibilities is going to require some pretty meticulous methodology and there's no site better suited to that than DF.

 

[eastmen]

I'm sure I recall Alex questioning it on here. Maybe I'm misremembering as a lot of people have questioned it. But in any case I don't think it's their responsibility to publicly contradict devs like that without any technical evidence to back it up. Maybe they really are occasionally unloading and reloading some portions of data on camera turns on PS5, whereas on PC they may leverage bigger RAM pools for that, or just lower settings enough that it all fits in whatever RAM is available.

In any case testing all these possibilities is going to require some pretty meticulous methodology and there's no site better suited to that than DF.

PC only requires 8gigs of ram and a 2gig graphics card with a mechanical hard drive.

• Operating system: Windows 10 64-bit
• Processor: Intel Core i3-8100 / AMD Ryzen 3 3100
• Graphics card: GeForce GTX 960 / Radeon RX 470
• Memory: 8 GB RAM
• Free disk space: 75 GB HDD (SSD recommended).

Also the i3-8100 is 4core/4 thread cpu . The ryzen 3 3100 is a 4 core 8 thread cpu. So in cpu/ram amount/ storage speed / gpu power the ps5 out specs the minimum pc requirements quite handly

 

[Flappy Pannus]

They got caught believing the hype and are trying to walk it back. It should be easy to test with and without a mechanical drive on an zen/rdna 2 platform with similar specs to a ps5 and the truth will simply come out. the fact that its possible to run off a mechanical drive already shows that it would be possible on a mechanical drive and ps5.

Oh ffs.

I can "run" Spiderman PC on a 5400rpm HDD. So is the SSD 'bullshit'? No, it's that a version of the game can run from a HDD - a version that will exhibit noticeable stutters for the first minute, but then has the advantage of caching all that data into my 32GB of ram to prevent what would likely be constant stuttering on a system with far less accessible memory. Longer delay for fast travel, combined with much longer load times for textures to be fully populated after you fast travel to boot. It doesn't mean that the SSD is bullshit marketing hype just because it can manage to run a shittier version of it acceptably, it's kudos to a well constructed PC port that scales as it needs to.

The SSD was necessary to deliver the version of the game they wanted within the constrains of the target platform. That Rachet and Clank on a 2GB GPU with a HDD will not look and run like the PS5 version.

 

[dobwal]

The hype was backed up by developer comments, though. They spoke with certainty and authority regarding the merits of PS5's IO.
Example


I'm excited to see how this game runs on a variety of hardware. It's system requirements are much lower than I expected. I hope someone gets it running on an AMD FX CPU and an R7 GPU (or less), just because I want to see how low it can go. But I'd also like to see it run on a variety of drive speeds on a higher end system. HDD, SHDD, SATA SSD, and NVME.

Why conflate? Consoles for the last few gens have their VRAM backed by a HDD. PC VRAM has always been backed by system RAM. Statements in regard to the PS5 IO probably didn't include a PC like setup, because correct me if I am wrong, the franchise has never appeared on the PC.

Saying RC:RA needs an SSD was probably aimed strictly at historical console designs.

 

[techuse]

I think loading screens are a possibility on the low end PC spec.

 

[Karamazov]

you may get close to PS5 version loading speeds on PC with a HDD only if you can compensate with enough RAM, how much ? We may get an answer soon after testing.
Keep in mind that R&C PS5 worked well enough with a 3GB/S SSD, and in DF's interview the dev said they did not tap the full potential of the PS5, as they found they could go even faster after R&C was done.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I'm excited to see how this game runs on a variety of hardware. It's system requirements are much lower than I expected. I hope someone gets it running on an AMD FX CPU and an R7 GPU (or less), just because I want to see how low it can go. But I'd also like to see it run on a variety of drive speeds on a higher end system. HDD, SHDD, SATA SSD, and NVME.

Insomniac have had a really good streaming engine since the PS2. With regards to PS4' HDD, although the stock HDD was rated as a minimum of 50mb/sec for loading, Insomniac said in their GDC Spider-man Postmortem they Sony had data that people had "upgraded" their PS4 HDD to a larger capacity slower drive, which is why they targeted a max of 20mb/sec max streaming for that game. So that is a pretty technical low bar and vastly slower than most 3.5" spinning platters HDD sold in the last ten yers.

 

[Overstander]

Oh ffs.

I can "run" Spiderman PC on a 5400rpm HDD. So is the SSD 'bullshit'? No, it's that a version of the game can run from a HDD - a version that will exhibit noticeable stutters for the first minute, but then has the advantage of caching all that data into my 32GB of ram to prevent what would likely be constant stuttering on a system with far less accessible memory. Longer delay for fast travel, combined with much longer load times for textures to be fully populated after you fast travel to boot. It doesn't mean that the SSD is bullshit marketing hype just because it can manage to run a shittier version of it acceptably, it's kudos to a well constructed PC port that scales as it needs to.

The SSD was necessary to deliver the version of the game they wanted within the constrains of the target platform. That Rachet and Clank on a 2GB GPU with a HDD will not look and run like the PS5 version.

Yeah it is like many people try to say ahead of time that the hdd version will look like the PS5 Version.
Just filling the information space with anti ps5 propaganda as long as it is possible.

A HDD version will NEVER be true to the vision Insomniac had.

 

[davis.anthony]

Wasn't Spiderman PS4 also CPU limited too? As in they could only decompress so much on that 1.6Ghz potato CPU?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

A HDD version will NEVER be true to the vision Insomniac had.

And the analysis may bear that out. It feels inevitable that if you're trying to play this game with good graphics fidelity, from a relatively slow HDD (compared to a modern SSD), that you may see some lower-res textures and geometry pop-in if the I/O cannot keep up with the game's demands. Some of this can be mitigated by using free RAM and less-aggressively unloading data, but if the game needs to load a ton of data quickly and it can't, and it's not elsewhere in memory, then you'll see what we're used to seeing in this situation, low-quality place-holder assets.

But hasn't this always been a choice for each individual PC gamer? That's the appeal of the platform, that can can you run almost anything - within reason - if you're willing to compromise.

 

[eastmen]

Oh ffs.

I can "run" Spiderman PC on a 5400rpm HDD. So is the SSD 'bullshit'? No, it's that a version of the game can run from a HDD - a version that will exhibit noticeable stutters for the first minute, but then has the advantage of caching all that data into my 32GB of ram to prevent what would likely be constant stuttering on a system with far less accessible memory. Longer delay for fast travel, combined with much longer load times for textures to be fully populated after you fast travel to boot. It doesn't mean that the SSD is bullshit marketing hype just because it can manage to run a shittier version of it acceptably, it's kudos to a well constructed PC port that scales as it needs to.

The SSD was necessary to deliver the version of the game they wanted within the constrains of the target platform. That Rachet and Clank on a 2GB GPU with a HDD will not look and run like the PS5 version.

Yes FFs, Ratchet and clank requires 8gigs of system ram in recommended specs not your 32 gigs. Here I will post the requirements again for you

• Operating system: Windows 10 64-bit
• Processor: Intel Core i3-8100 / AMD Ryzen 3 3100
• Graphics card: GeForce GTX 960 / Radeon RX 470
• Memory: 8 GB RAM
• Free disk space: 75 GB HDD (SSD recommended).

See where it says 8GB of ram ? See that gtx 960 ? That is 2gigs of ram. So that System they recommend has a total of 10gigs of ram plus unlike a ps5 it has to run the full version of windows and not an optimized gaming version of linux.

So last I check 10gigs is 6 gigs less than what the ps5 has and certainly less than your 32gigs of system ram


The ps5 gets an optimized version of the game and I am sure that they tweaked it so it looks better than a 2015 graphics card can run it. But we still know the fancy portals can be done on that level of hardware and mechanical drive

 

[Phantom88]

Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart PC specs and new features revealed

Learn what tools of the trade the Lombax is bringing to the world of PC gaming.

blog.playstation.com

 

[Below2D]

We need to see how it runs before coming to conclusions. I wouldn't rely on specs.

 

[Below2D]

Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart PC specs and new features revealed

Learn what tools of the trade the Lombax is bringing to the world of PC gaming.

blog.playstation.com

This part is interesting:

DirectStorage ensures quick loading times, and GPU decompression is used at high graphics settings to stream assets in the background while playing.

So, GPU decompression won't be used at anything lower than high?

 

[pjbliverpool]

Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart PC specs and new features revealed

Learn what tools of the trade the Lombax is bringing to the world of PC gaming.

blog.playstation.com

"While Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart can be enjoyed using an HDD and the minimum system requirements, we encourage players to use an SSD in combination with the recommended system requirements or higher, to experience the game’s signature dimension-hopping gameplay as originally intended."

So that all but confirms longer transition times on HDD's.

This part is interesting:

DirectStorage ensures quick loading times, and GPU decompression is used at high graphics settings to stream assets in the background while playing.

So, GPU decompression won't be used at anything lower than high?

I wonder if they simply don't need to do streaming at lower graphics settings? Perhaps at reduced settings they just load everything into VRAM at an initial load screen? Obviously assuming a sufficiently large VRAM pool.

 

[SmooTh]

 

[see colon]

Insomniac have had a really good streaming engine since the PS2. With regards to PS4' HDD, although the stock HDD was rated as a minimum of 50mb/sec for loading, Insomniac said in their GDC Spider-man Postmortem they Sony had data that people had "upgraded" their PS4 HDD to a larger capacity slower drive, which is why they targeted a max of 20mb/sec max streaming for that game. So that is a pretty technical low bar and vastly slower than most 3.5" spinning platters HDD sold in the last ten yers.

I remember reading this interview, but... I've pulled stock HDDs from PS4's, hooked them up to a PC to test and benchmarked them, and they all have read speeds of about 100MB/s. Well, the working ones, anyway. That's pretty normal for 5400RPM drives. I'm sure there are cheap drives with less cache and worse seek times that are going to affect performance. And obviously the HDD controller in PS4 would affect performance. Did I have a fever dream or did I read that the PS4 only supports 1 SATA device internally so the HDD actually uses a USB to SATA converter on board? I feel like that information came out of the efforts to make Linux work on PS4. Perhaps the overhead and inefficiencies of that are causing issues.

Anyway, I'm not accusing Insomniac of lying about the HDD performance on PS4. In fact, I have no doubt they would make such claims without merit. But I do find it curious that there are drives that exist that limit PS4's performance to 20MB/s. I've never seen a working 5400RPM drive that slow. That's USB flash drive speeds.

 

[davis.anthony]

Insomniac said in their GDC Spider-man Postmortem they Sony had data that people had "upgraded" their PS4 HDD to a larger capacity slower drive, which is why they targeted a max of 20mb/sec max streaming for that game.

The 20MB number was their allocated streaming budget per tile, they stream three tiles at a time so they're at 60MB/s for those, plus a bit extra for everything else that needs to stream.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I remember reading this interview, but... I've pulled stock HDDs from PS4's, hooked them up to a PC to test and benchmarked them, and they all have read speeds of about 100MB/s. Well, the working ones, anyway. That's pretty normal for 5400RPM drives. I'm sure there are cheap drives with less cache and worse seek times that are going to affect performance. And obviously the HDD controller in PS4 would affect performance.

The controllers in all last generation consoles are underwhelming. Digital Foundry did tests and concluded it wasn't worth putting an SSD in, this link takes you to the PS4/Pro test, I cannot find the a Eurogamer article for the Xbox One test so it may have been a video.

Did I have a fever dream or did I read that the PS4 only supports 1 SATA device internally so the HDD actually uses a USB to SATA converter on board?

I don't know but I can well believe it. The controller is on the APU and a second SATA controller when the only second interface available can be the USB port is a saving on die space.

Anyway, I'm not accusing Insomniac of lying about the HDD performance on PS4. In fact, I have no doubt they would make such claims without merit. But I do find it curious that there are drives that exist that limit PS4's performance to 20MB/s.

It makes you wonder what Spider-Man could have looked like on PS4 had they been able to rely on that 50mb/sec transfer speed. More geometry, better textures, more asset diversity...

 

[davis.anthony]

It makes you wonder what Spider-Man could have looked like on PS4 had they been able to rely on that 50mb/sec transfer speed. More geometry, better textures, more asset diversity...

He has me on ignore by looks of it.

Can someone tell him he's wrong about the streaming speed in Spiderman PS4 and tell him to rewatch the presentation as they stream well over what he thinks they do.