Developers moving from Ps2 to Xbox.

[Tuttle]

"Michael Goodman, a senior analyst for the Yankee Group"

I bet the significance of that went right by you all...

 

[Tuttle]

Peecee game developers:

"We love the xbox because we don't know how to construct a graphics engine any other way than just dumping all the textures and geometry to a big fat expensive monopoly subsidized video card. And we like to make things shiny."

 

[Li Mu Bai]

Disagree, mostly. If there's a will, there's a way. Look at what was done on the SNES, or hell, look at what was done on the C64 for that matter... The underlying hardware isn't as much the issue as basic design. If one takes a PC game and tries to port it to the PS2 straight up you end up with something that runs, looks and plays like shit. Like Unreal Tournament for example, a 30fps way sub-par mess made by a sub-par coding house which then goes on to blame the platform for their own failure.

The game's engine has to be designed for the target hardware, and then it'll run beautifully. Maybe some devs feel it's not worth going through that bother for the largest (by far) platform on the market, well if that is the case then there's underlying motives behind it all rather than just making a technically advanced game (such as microsoft money straight down the devs/publishers' pockets, but this is just a theory mind you).

E3 hits us in about half a month, it is my guess titles like Killzone for example will make the statements quoted at the start of this thread look like a bunch of hot air.

Like Jason Rubin said, "it's only hard if you suck". Or, I think it was he that said that...

I concur Guden Oten. AC5 & MGS3 would be some additional visual gems worth mentioning. Technically advanced games can be produced by any system, (given their developer's proficiency) albeit somewhat more easily upon the GC & X-Box due to their respective feature sets.

 

[marconelly!]

I assume you dev for PS2 then at the very least. What environment do you use that makes it simple?

I am basing my statement on words of many developers, some of which post here, some give their piece of mind in the press - and that piece of mind has often been negative during the early lifecycle of PS2 devkits, but the majority has become satisfied as the time went on and kits improved. Mind you, those are people who have made significant games, so I have no problem taking their word on it. Several devs on this very board have also recently expressed their enthusiasm towards PS2 development, and some of it's intricacies.

Another thing that I have seen is that a lot of the cross platform titles perform sub-par on the PS2.

Where on Earth are you coming up with this information? Sales data don't lie, and I follow it closely. Almost all multiplatform games that are released at the same time across all platforms sell the best on PS2. Sometimes that difference is not very big, but more often than not, games sell 2-3 better on PS2 than on Xbox, which again almost always sell more than on Gamecube. In the case of games that release first on PS2, that ratio is usually even higher - which, after all, is to be expected with the userbase that is 4-5 times larger than it's closest competitor, and still having the highest soft/hard tie-in ratio. Multiplatform games that have underperformed on the PS2 can probably be counted on one hand - Soul Calibur 2 comes to mind (and that game had a huge hook for Nintendo fans), but not much else.

 

[archie4oz]

I assume you dev for PS2 then at the very least. What environment do you use that makes it simple? I have found nothing on that beast to be simple. Sure now that we're getting further along the "gotchas" like "unaligned memory reads not causing an exception but reading in the wrong data" are getting us less. But they're everywhere. Have you written anything for the IOP? I'm curious as to why you think it's a fine devkit?

I don't believe he said the PS2 devkit was a fine devkit... Did you do any PSone dev or are you planning any PSP titles?

And I'm rather curious to where you're seeing unaligned memory reads...

Another thing that I have seen is that a lot of the cross platform titles perform sub-par on the PS2.

That's little surprise considering the radical differences between the two platforms. I mean try developing something for MacOS 9 and then migrate to OS X... Same hardware, but totally different software platforms with different methods to achieving performance... Then throw in the hardware difference factor...

I think the cell tech is going to be the biggest hurdle. From the description I read, it seems like it's going to be a collection of "micro" programs.

OK, c'mon now, how is that much different from writing VU micro-programs?!? At least the APUs can feed themselves...

Where on Earth are you coming up with this information? Sales data don't lie, and I follow it closely.

I think he was referring to technical performanc/quality, not sales performance...

I am basing my statement on words of many developers, some of which post here, some give their piece of mind in the press - and that piece of mind has often been negative during the early lifecycle of PS2 devkits, but the majority has become satisfied as the time went on and kits improved.

Well I think "satisfied" might be overstating the issue... I mean there's still a lot to bitch about (I could actually bitch about all three systems, but for the arguement's sake I'll stick to the PS2)...

Probably one of the biggest problems IMO has been the compiler... The base compiler is friggen crufty and aging. If you wanna try patching a newer version of gcc to the EE you're in for quite a treat ( ) as the EEcore is about as far from a standard MIPS core design as you can get and still call it a MIPS processor... Nevermind having to patch in support for MMI, but also VU macro support as well... Then there's all the data formats it supports and the ability to load and store them. Supporting it's *different* floating-point behavior.

And that's only the EEcore... Then you're using a different compiler for the IOP as there's none for VU micro-code (unless you've got a copy of VectorC (which is actually pretty good)), so you're dealing with two different ISAs along with two different CPU targets... And don't even get started about debugging...

Of course there are other alternatives... You could go the Naughty Dog route and roll your own compiler, but that's no small undertaking (believe me I know since I worked on "trying" to patch gcc 3.1 and 3.2.2 (and was looking forward to tinkering with the DFA scheduler in 3.3) ...

I mean it's a world of difference just dealing with code generation on x86 or PowerPC vs. the EE (or the PS2 in general)....

Now that being said there are bright points about it, and I do like the challenge the PS2 (or more specifically the EE offers) and I would elaborate further, but I'm getting tired, I'm still at work, and food just got here...

 

[marconelly!]

*edit* I hope the quotes below will address the message Nameless sent me, where he replied to me, as he didn't want to go off-topic in this thread (a very respectable thing, btw )

I don't believe he said the PS2 devkit was a fine devkit... Did you do any PSone dev or are you planning any PSP titles?

What I meant to say was that the devkit/libraries and the documentation was much worse at the very beginning of the PS2 lifecycle than it is now. I remember stories that the documentation wasn't even fully translated to English, but was in part still Japanese, for example.

I think he was referring to technical performanc/quality, not sales performance...

If that is the case, he would have a point with titles that are ported from Xbox/PC to PS2. That's pretty much the only situation where I've seen PS2 ports perform poorly, and it again bogs down that PC-oriented devs will find themselvels much more at home while developing for Xbox. Simultaneously developed games rarely differ much between the three platforms, and the games developed with PS2 in mind, and later ported to other platforms, actually often keep the performance edge on PS2.

 

[nelg]

Two questions I have.

1. In the context of this generation of consoles being near their end of life, do you think that development times and or expense will have any influence on which platform developers will code for?

2. WRT to the quality of titles that are available (and coming) for the PS2, would they represent the practical limit of what is possible on that platform and how much more(less?) could we expect from the Xbox?

 

[Li Mu Bai]

If that is the case, he would have a point with titles that are ported from Xbox/PC to PS2. That's pretty much the only situation where I've seen PS2 ports perform poorly, and it again bogs down that PC-oriented devs will find themselvels much more at home while developing for Xbox. Simultaneously developed games rarely differ much between the three platforms, and the games developed with PS2 in mind, and later ported to other platforms, actually often keep the performance edge on PS2.

I know you're a PS2 afficionado, but you're pushing your credibility with these statements. Examples? Look at the Madden series, (referring to all 3 consoles) PoP, Burnout 2, Spider-man, ROTK, Soulcalibur II, Sims, etc. It's rare that a cross-platform title ever looks the best visually upon the PS2, despite it being the launch console. If very noticeable jags, shimmering, framerate, (at times) etc. qualifies as "subtle" differences, well then I must refer you to Lenscrafters. I do agree with your assertion about games deved. with the PS2's architecture specifically in mind. Though this is true with all the respective systems RS3, Halo, SC, RE4, etc. It's dependent upon how proficient the developer is with "coding to the metal."

 

[Tuttle]

The only thing 'hard' about PS2 development is finding out what the IP of your Tool is when you first hook up the hardware.

After that, install the PS2 libraries, run the CodeWarrior installer, type in the IP address so the debugger can connect to the Tool, and you are ready to compile and run the sample programs.

Building a PS2 executable is no different for most of the development process than developing code on a home computer. Edit, compile, set breakpoints, run, repeat.

CodeWarrior has amazing performance monitoring tools.

Some devs use SN Systems tools. They are absolute garbage. But they are garbage on all platform's they support.

 

[marconelly!]

I know you're a PS2 afficionado, but you're pushing your credibility with these statements. Examples? Look at the Madden series, (referring to all 3 consoles) PoP, Burnout 2, Spider-man, ROTK, Soulcalibur II, Sims, etc. It's rare that a cross-platform title ever looks the best visually upon the PS2, despite it being the launch console.

I think you have misread what I've said. I've said that titles that are developed and released at the same time rarely differ much. Now, maybe I'm dead wrong but to me, PoP, ROTK, SC2, Madden, SSX3, don't differ much, and in some rare cases (like SSX3) even look slightly better on the PS2. It's ironic that the very games you mentioned, actually don't have any image quality problems on PS2 that are not found on other two (most of them support 480p for example). GC multi-platform games sometimes suffer from some small problems as well, which delegates them as inferior, be it irregular framerate, or poorly adapted controls. With GC ports it actually happens too often to ignore. Sometimes even Xbox versions have their own small problems (like slowdowns in ROTK) that other two don't have. But I think those differences are really too small to matter, or to be called 'underperforming'. Now, Max Payne 2 or Wreckless on PS2 - that is underperforming.

 

[Geeforcer]

OMG, so Xbox is more powerful then PS2 and is preferred by PC-oriented developers? I am sure this shocking news will be the subject of the special extra midnight edition of NY Times.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

I know you're a PS2 afficionado, but you're pushing your credibility with these statements. Examples? Look at the Madden series, (referring to all 3 consoles) PoP, Burnout 2, Spider-man, ROTK, Soulcalibur II, Sims, etc. It's rare that a cross-platform title ever looks the best visually upon the PS2, despite it being the launch console.

I think you have misread what I've said. I've said that titles that are developed and released at the same time rarely differ much. Now, maybe I'm dead wrong but to me, PoP, ROTK, SC2, Madden, SSX3, don't differ much, and in some rare cases (like SSX3) even look slightly better on the PS2. It's ironic that the very games you mentioned, actually don't have any image quality problems on PS2 that are not found on other two (most of them support 480p for example). GC multi-platform games sometimes suffer from some small problems as well, which delegates them as inferior, be it irregular framerate, or poorly adapted controls. With GC ports it actually happens too often to ignore. Sometimes even Xbox versions have their own small problems (like slowdowns in ROTK) that other two don't have. But I think those differences are really too small to matter, or to be called 'underperforming'. Now, Max Payne 2 or Wreckless on PS2 - that is underperforming.

You're right, but as I said this is a "rare" occurence w/multi-console releases. NFS:HP would be another cross-platform title that looks best on the PS2. (like SSX3) The majority however, (even when supporting 480p) do have visual differences. I never even brought up IQ marco. I was referring mainly to the visual representations of cross-platform software across all consoles. Not control layout, & not really any other major aspect. And yes, sometimes the differences are indeed small, & other times they are glaring or very noticeable.

 

[archie4oz]

The only thing 'hard' about PS2 development is finding out what the IP of your Tool is when you first hook up the hardware.

Uhhh.. That's about the easiest thing you can do... I can think of a plethora of things that are harder to deal with...

Building a PS2 executable is no different for most of the development process than developing code on a home computer. Edit, compile, set breakpoints, run, repeat.

Building an executable is easy (especially nowadays)... Making it do something impressive is another stack of pancakes... Hello World isn't very fun and particle demos will only get you so far with the end user...

CodeWarrior has amazing performance monitoring tools.

I wouldn't go so far to say that... Or not at least until recently... Granted their debuggers have always been pretty good...

Some devs use SN Systems tools. They are absolute garbage. But they are garbage on all platform's they support.

Obviously you'll run some disagreements over this... Everybody has their favourites... While I've long been a fan of Codewarriors IDE for example (since my early mac days) it's fallen out of grace for me... Granted you can also used VS.NET (and I know there's quite a few who are literally married to VS, but it's never been my cup of tea)... Plus I like SN's compilers better (even though Codewarriors compile faster)...

 

[London Geezer]

The MHz myth will never die
If someone tell that guy, i mean this Great reporter, that the 8th fastest supercomputer in the world has 375Mhz processors and the fastest supercompteur has "only" 500MHz processors, he would go crazy!

Nah, his world would fall apart. He would committ suicide. Maybe mass murder. Start flying aircrafts into buildings.

 

[Nick Laslett]

I know you're a PS2 afficionado, but you're pushing your credibility with these statements. Examples? Look at the Madden series, (referring to all 3 consoles) PoP, Burnout 2, Spider-man, ROTK, Soulcalibur II, Sims, etc. It's rare that a cross-platform title ever looks the best visually upon the PS2, despite it being the launch console. If very noticeable jags, shimmering, framerate, (at times) etc. qualifies as "subtle" differences, well then I must refer you to Lenscrafters.

This is crap and you know it.

POP, Burnout2, ROTK & Soul Calibur 2 are near identical on the PS2 and Xbox. You would have to examine these games under intense scrutiny to notice the very minor differences. They all run in Prog Scan which helps. Maybe you just need a decent cable to see these games in their true glory.

 

[Squeak]

Probably one of the biggest problems IMO has been the compiler... The base compiler is friggen crufty and aging. If you wanna try patching a newer version of gcc to the EE you're in for quite a treat ( ) as the EEcore is about as far from a standard MIPS core design as you can get and still call it a MIPS processor... Nevermind having to patch in support for MMI, but also VU macro support as well... Then there's all the data formats it supports and the ability to load and store them. Supporting it's *different* floating-point behavior.

It's beyond me why SCE hasn't made it highest priority to update and improve the compiler.
EE core has after all always been the main complaining point of developers.
If you look at some of the old slides on the SCEE site, it was a big problem three years ago, and apparently it still is.
Quite embarrassing if you ask me. PS2 is afterall what keeps Sony afloat. Shouldn't they treat it and the people developing for it, with according respect by suppling decent tools, if not from the getgo, then at least when the platform matures?
I don't get it.

 

[Dural]

Now, maybe I'm dead wrong but to me, PoP, ROTK, SC2, Madden, SSX3, don't differ much, and in some rare cases (like SSX3) even look slightly better on the PS2.

In IGN's SSX3 head-to-head the Xbox came out on top for graphics with GC second and PS2 third. In every head-to-head I've read the PS2 always has a more flutuating framerate than the other consoles and the load times are unbelievably longer.

This is crap and you know it.

POP, Burnout2, ROTK & Soul Calibur 2 are near identical on the PS2 and Xbox. You would have to examine these games under intense scrutiny to notice the very minor differences. They all run in Prog Scan which helps. Maybe you just need a decent cable to see these games in their true glory.

There is a pretty large difference between the Xbox version of SC2 and the PS2 version when you play it at 720p.

 

[London Geezer]

... and the load times are unbelievably longer.

Unbelievably longer? Maybe you should listen a little bit more to your brain, and not IGN features...

There is a pretty large difference between the Xbox version of SC2 and the PS2 version when you play it at 720p.

Well of course, no one is denying that. However at 480p the games are very close. Not this "unbelievable" difference many people love to talk about.
No one's saying PS2 versions are equal to the others, only that in the end the difference is not as striking as many people would like you to believe.
I'm the first to say that if i could play in pro-scan on Xbox(PAL), i would have bought it a long time ago. But as it is, i would probably have a better experience playing Burnout2 on PS2 since it's the only version that supports pro-scan here in Europe. The same applies for any other game that either supports pro-scan on PS2 or that are just full-frame rendered (not field rendered), which today is pretty much "all of them".
And i still have to finish FarCry. And i still have to OPEN Painkiller.

 

[Squeak]

I have a growing feeling that the majority of software developers only get out of a given peice of hardware, what they prejudicially think they can get out of it.
Or even worse, what they think they can get away with.

 

[Fafalada]

I thought it was common knowledge that the PS2 was difficult to develop for and that the PS3 is looking much worse. My bad.
Maybe you guys are privy to information that I'm not. Or I have missed something else. Do tell.

No offense, but unless You are privy to information that we aren't, PS3 isn't looking to be anything yet.
The only "common knowledge" argument about PS3 that is continualy repeated is "it's Sony, it's more powerfull, therefore it MUST be even harder to work with".
And while I'm not gonna argue with such impecable wisdom, I will always find it amusing to hear anything of the sort stated with so much conviction from an actual developer.

Incidentially I can't for the love of anything see why you'd like PC development so much - tools or no tools, I find the milion of issues that PC platform struggles with far worse then anything on consoles.

In my experience it all boils down to what platforms the publishers want to see the title on.

Certainly, now if we had statistical data for most world's publisher showing that the future stuff they want to see is mostly XBox, I'm sure everyone would also agree the article is right.

Another thing that I have seen is that a lot of the cross platform titles perform sub-par on the PS2. So a PS2/Xbox game may have the PS2 version canned, so that the publisher can ship "something". This seems to be rare though, but I have seen it happen more than once.

Well I've seen this happen to XBox titles more then once too. Must be definate proof that XBox is being phased out.

It's rare that a cross-platform title ever looks the best visually upon the PS2, despite it being the launch console.

It doesn't matter what's the primary platform - in simultaneous development the biggest factors are CPU speed and memory - other stuff is secondary (and/or can be contained within limits of each platform).
That said, PS2 having the slowest CPU will tend to get hurt the most by cross platform.

I remember stories that the documentation wasn't even fully translated to English, but was in part still Japanese, for example.

It will please you to know then that current PSP SDK/documents are fully available in 3 languages (English, Japanese, Korean), as well as the web/dev support stuff.
Can't say if PS3 will be handled in the same fashion, but clearly they are doing some things right now.