Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2022] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]

[Michael Thompson]

Nx gamer would get more respect if he learns to hide he's sony bias and upgrade his testing hardware.. because it looks amateur

An RX6800 and Zen 3 5600X with 32GB Ram and 6GB/s SSD is amateur?
Also, i see the lack of the "2700 and Vram" is holding back the Nvidia machine on this game and posts, has this been updated now to beat the CPU inside the PS5/Series X now?

 

[davis.anthony]

Yeah it does, wrappers are very common as they help you start a project with lower level of effort required to get the engine up and running with the API, I have used them often in my day job and DLL are a form of this also. GNMX was used a great deal by many teams, even huge teams like Ubisoft, among others, used it to get the game running. Some ship on that and then updated to the lower API (GNM) later, this helps with the GPU side most predominantly and is within the complier of the Sony SDK.

To assume Sony removed this for PS5 is an odd view and very unlikely, but maybe you are just not aware of them. That said it could be significantly different here but the PlayStation PSSL is largely based on OPEN_GL which is the basis of DX HSSL anyway, so much comes full circle on these.

The GDC talk on 2013 gives a good insight into the work and effort they made on easing PC/360 ports to PS4 and also highlights that the native functions exposed in the direct API can offer specific benefits to the platform, which is what DX12 will do for Xbox as it will sympatico. https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1019252/PlayStation-Shading-Language-for

Linux uses wrappers all the time, such as wine, and if they are JiT parser like Wine or not is not important, DoSBox is also a wrapper, the SteamDeck relies on this and Valve have invested heavily on it to improve it, even over Windows versions to reduce or remove stutter shader compilation, although much comes down to the fixed hardware spec. The issue here is, this is down to the development team and I am NOT saying that they have, merely I observed and demonstrated, the PS5 is affected far more from big stutters and performance hiccups over Series X and S at times. The CPU overhead may be coming from this or something else entirely.

So because you use them for work and they exist that means they're used on PS5.

Good counter argument.

 

[Lurkmass]

To assume Sony removed this for PS5 is an odd view and very unlikely, but maybe you are just not aware of them. That said it could be significantly different here but the PlayStation PSSL is largely based on OPEN_GL which is the basis of DX HSSL anyway, so much comes full circle on these.

I don't believe this statement is true ...

PSSL is actually based on HLSL according to Sony and Microsoft took heavy inspiration from Nvidia's CG shading language when they were designing HLSL. CG was intended to be designed for OpenGL (can be used with Direct3D as well) but the ARB (what we now know as Khronos Group) rejected Nvidia's proposal and instead opted to adopt 3Dlabs (acquired by Intel) GLSL shading language as the standard shading language ...

 

[Michael Thompson]

So because you use them for work and they exist that means they're used on PS5.

Good counter argument.

No, because they DO exist and developers have told me and others they use them.

The thing is using these will aid porting but impact GPU and more CPU negatively, and likely memory to a smaller degree.

I don't believe this statement is true ...

PSSL is actually based on HLSL according to Sony and Microsoft took heavy inspiration from Nvidia's CG shading language when they were designing HLSL. CG was intended to be designed for OpenGL (can be used with Direct3D as well) but the ARB (what we now know as Khronos Group) rejected Nvidia's proposal and instead opted to adopt 3Dlabs (acquired by Intel) GLSL shading language as the standard shading language ...

PSSL is based on Open_GL and HLSL is also, I will need to find the sources, but Khronos have taken that in their own direct but really all modern 3D rendering stems from the Open_GL basis. But as is always the case these things influence each other etc back and forth.

 

[iroboto]

Yeah it does, wrappers are very common as they help you start a project with lower level of effort required to get the engine up and running with the API, I have used them often in my day job and DLL are a form of this also. GNMX was used a great deal by many teams, even huge teams like Ubisoft, among others, used it to get the game running. Some ship on that and then updated to the lower API (GNM) later, this helps with the GPU side most predominantly and is within the complier of the Sony SDK.

Follow the convo->

So if it exists you probably would know tough seemed possible for me taking into accounts wrapers for dx12 and vylkans for steamdeck (tough Im not sure how it works)

He's asking if you are insinuating if something like proton exists for PS4 or something similar of a wrapper of DX12 -> to GNM that exists to which he responded no - it is unlikely that there is a library that performs this particular translation.
Not whether there is a high level GNMX API and a low level GNM API. There will always be GNMX support as there will always be DX11 support.

If you are insisting that PT:R is running poorly because it's on GNMX and not GNM, I would love to hear more as to why.

 

[Michael Thompson]

Follow the convo->

He's asking if you are insinuating if something like proton exists for PS4 or something similar of a wrapper of DX12 -> to GNM that exists to which he responded no - it is unlikely that there is a library that performs this particular translation.
Not whether there is a high level GNMX API and a low level GNM API. There will always be GNMX support as there will always be DX11 support.

If you are insisting that PT:R is running poorly because it's on GNMX and not GNM, I would love to hear more as to why.

Let's wait and see on his answer and then I can respond.

 

[davis.anthony]

No, because they DO exist and developers have told me and others they use them.

1. Next time lead with that
2. Have the Arkham developers told you they're using a wrapper?

 

[chris1515]

Asobo worked on the PS5 for the first Plague Tale but they have more experience with the Xbox Series. There are two possible reasons the game is running better on Xbox because the code of the game is better tailored for Xbox Series X GPU like more bandwidth and compute power and it seems the better explanation if it is the case they could have probably reduce a little the resolution on PS5 and it can solve the problem.

The other one is they are more familiar with Xbox Series and maybe the PS5 version will perform better after some patches but without being in the team we have no idea if it is the case.

No AAA third party studio used GNMX to release a final version of a PS4 game and after being working 7 years with GNM I suppose third party studio doesn't need GNMX to have port their engine to PS5. And PS5 library

How The Crew was ported to PlayStation 4

Ubisoft Reflections tells the story of how it brought the new Ivory Tower driving game to PS4.

www.eurogamer.net

EDIT: For the SSD all versions are slow, Asobo is not pushing PS5 SSD API and Direct Storage on Xbox Series. I think we will see game doing a better usage of the current gen consoles on CPU side and SSD performance.

 

[DavidGraham]

Regarding the claimed motion blur problem on PC in Uncharted 4, the developer of the game has this to say about the motion blur:

NOTE: Motion blur’s effectiveness decreases at higher frame rates.

First UNCHARTED: Legacy of Thieves Collection PC patch released

Iron Galaxy has released the first PC update for UNCHARTED: Legacy of Thieves Collection, and here are its full patch notes.

www.dsogaming.com

 

[see colon]

Asobo worked on the PS5 for the first Plague Tale but they have more experience with the Xbox Series. There are two possible reasons the game is running better on Xbox because the code of the game is better tailored for Xbox Series X GPU like more bandwidth and compute power and it seems the better explanation if it is the case they could have probably reduce a little the resolution on PS5 and it can solve the problem.

Maybe, but this game basically runs with a performance split that would be expected given the relative specs between the two systems. It's fairly plausible that the hardware differences are to blame for the performance. Even the load times, since the game doesn't appear to use any of the specialized hardware or APIs in the newer console to mitigate that.

 

[iroboto]

Let's wait and see on his answer and then I can respond.

ahh.. ok. don't hold your breath.
We've literally been discussing GNM and GNMX since 2013 or the latter part of the decade and Alex has been here since 2011 participating in discussions here.
He literally mentions Sony APIs with a plural.

I do not think auch a thing exists to be honest for the Sony APIs.

 

[chris1515]

Maybe, but this game basically runs with a performance split that would be expected given the relative specs between the two systems. It's fairly plausible that the hardware differences are to blame for the performance. Even the load times, since the game doesn't appear to use any of the specialized hardware or APIs in the newer console to mitigate that.

This is exactly what I said reduce a little resolution on PS5 can probably solve the problem if it is the case. IMO this is the reason after it will depend of the engine or maybe in the future it will be the case on more title.

EDIT: But I expect to see title on current gen console to look better visually than a Plague Tale Requiem and do a better usage of the CPU and the SSD. Asobo is not a huge team.

 

[davis.anthony]

Maybe, but this game basically runs with a performance split that would be expected given the relative specs between the two systems. It's fairly plausible that the hardware differences are to blame for the performance. Even the load times, since the game doesn't appear to use any of the specialized hardware or APIs in the newer console to mitigate that.

Indeed, we were always going to get to a point where games move over to a more compute and bandwidth heavy pipeline making Series-X pull further a head of PS5 as the generation progresses.

 

[PSman1700]

To achieve an average of 60fps with some drops at native 1440p at max settings requires a RX6600 or GTX1080.

Seems this game otherwise scales quite nicely, a RX6600 is ballpark 2060S performance, seeing it perform that close to PS5 means the port itself isnt that bad. 6600XT/2070 (s) would be the right match. The notion of the gtx1080, is that gpu still that capable, seeing its on a very old architecture? (pascal 2016).
Its a shame with these stutters, UE4 at its best. Sony ports generally have been quality with some exceptions, most likely due to them being ported pre-nixxes days.

 

[snc]

Maybe, but this game basically runs with a performance split that would be expected given the relative specs between the two systems. It's fairly plausible that the hardware differences are to blame for the performance. Even the load times, since the game doesn't appear to use any of the specialized hardware or APIs in the newer console to mitigate that.

When looking on vgtech stats diff is generaly not far of what theoretical diff in compute and bandwidth (xsx has avarage fps 8% advantage, min frame 27%, 5th percentile framerate 24%) but when we looks that ps5 drops more on scenes with data load and loading times are longer on ps5 for sure it could be better port (but again asobo is not biggest team and more experienced with microsoft platform). One thing that would help on both platforms is implementing dynamic res.
Stats: https://bit.ly/3MBGaYJ

 

[Jawed]

Looks awesome! And I know several of those bars well

And no ray tracing - impossible, surely.

 

[pjbliverpool]

And no ray tracing - impossible, surely.

Now that you mention it, yeah the lighting does look a bit flat

Regarding the claimed motion blur problem on PC in Uncharted 4, the developer of the game has this to say about the motion blur:

First UNCHARTED: Legacy of Thieves Collection PC patch released

Iron Galaxy has released the first PC update for UNCHARTED: Legacy of Thieves Collection, and here are its full patch notes.

www.dsogaming.com

Performance improvements too. Sounds like they're listening to and responding to issues raised by the gaming community.

 

[Below2D]

Nx gamer would get more respect if he learns to hide he's sony bias and upgrade his testing hardware.. because it looks amateur

I don't think personal attacks like this are appropriate. Nxgamer could be a valuable contributor here but if we just keep the personal attacks, he won't bother posting here anymore. He has extensive knowledge, good coverage, a youtube channel, and works for IGN. His contributions could be valuable so let's try to treat him like we treat everyone else and not like some kind of enemy.

I'm not backseat modding here but those kinds of answers are what drive people away from here.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Performance improvements too. Sounds like they're listening to and responding to issues raised by the gaming community.

Really gotta fix those DLSS/FSR issues with shadows too. They fix that and it will be a solid, if not the most perfectly optimized port.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Linux uses wrappers all the time, such as wine, and if they are JiT parser like Wine or not is not important, DoSBox is also a wrapper, the SteamDeck relies on this and Valve have invested heavily on it to improve it, even over Windows versions to reduce or remove stutter shader compilation, although much comes down to the fixed hardware spec.

Everyone here knows this, the ARC thread is basically a DXVK instructional guide now. Nobody is debating that API wrappers exist, people are asking what is the basis to even speculate on such a thing for a major shipping product for a console with a well established development environment. Pointing to the Linux distributions is wholly irrelevant, they have to use a wrapper because the majority of developers are not targetting Linux natively.

Of course Sony has higher and lower tier API's like everyone, but that's a far cry from actually implying a developer is using a wrapper for another API as as such, is having to recompile shaders in real time for a fixed platform.