Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2022] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]

Freesync isn't compatible with HDMI's VRR specification. Freesync is a bit of a weird thing, it uses the HDMI 1.2a (and above) extended protocols but requires software on both devices to work. This will extist on your monitor but not your PS5 unless Sony add it. Maybe in another 18 months? :runaway:

I've recently been abusing my employers access to non-published HDMI technology information to look into HDMI's VRR protocol specification. I also had no idea there was a difference until a few days ago.
Interesting info.

From what I guessed in the past both HDMI-VRR and FreeSync is like their own implementation based in VESA VRR but each one has it own particularities.
GSync is the different one here... nVidia implementation is not based in VESA VRR.
 
Interesting info.
It's a mess. HDMI 2.1 VRR has a specific implementation which is incompatible with FreeSync, AdaptiveSync and G-Sync.

I believe my LG C9 supports both HDMI 2.1 VRR and FreeSync. It doesn't support the other two standards. It's all a bit rubbish.
 
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It's a mess. HDMI 2.1 VRR has a specific implementation which is incompatible with FreeSync, AdaptiveSync and G-Sync.

I believe my LG C9 supports both HDMI 2.1 VRR and FreeSync. It doesn't support the other two standards. It's all a bit rubbish.
Very interesting. I was always under the impression that they were open standards and that VRR = Freesync. Oh well.
 
Not exactly, if a Freesync monitor doesn’t support VRR?

Its the same technology, if display manufacturers decide to block certain hardware is another thing. I do not have a (modern) AMD gpu, but as far i understand Freesync (and Gsync) should work on any TV/monitor supporting the technology, includng displays that have VRR.

Edit: i have tested a RTX gpu in combination with a LG C9 at 4k/120hz VRR. AMD gpus do the same thing using Freesync.
 
It's a mess. HDMI 2.1 VRR has a specific implementation which is incompatible with FreeSync, AdaptiveSync and G-Sync.

I believe my LG C9 supports both HDMI 2.1 VRR and FreeSync. It doesn't support the other two standards. It's all a bit rubbish.
LG displays are "GSYNC Compatible" which I believe is just HDMI 2.1 VRR. Gsync is supported on my B9 and RTX 2070 Super.
 
LG displays are "GSYNC Compatible" which I believe is just HDMI 2.1 VRR. Gsync is supported on my B9 and RTX 2070 Super.
Yeah, my bad. the B9 and C9 are G-Sync and VRR compatible, it's the BX and CX that support VRR, G-Sync and FreeSync. A ton of new/subsequent functionality has been back ported to the LG B9/C9 so there is likely something lacking the hardware or firmware that limits support for FreeSync on older sets.

FreeSync does look a bit weird from the HDMI extension information available that AMD have shared. It was designed for DisplayPort 1.2, which may be why it doesn't seem to play well with other connection types without some work.
 
FreeSync does look a bit weird from the HDMI extension information available that AMD have shared. It was designed for DisplayPort 1.2, which may be why it doesn't seem to play well with other connection types without some work.
Is it not based in VESA Adaptive Sync used in DisplayPort? That is why it seems to be more designed to DP.

Edit - Found it.

What is DisplayPort Adaptive-Sync and how does it differ from AMD FreeSync™ technology?
DisplayPort Adaptive-Sync is a new addition to the DisplayPort 1.2a specification, ported from the embedded DisplayPort v1.0 specification through a proposal to the VESA group by AMD. DisplayPort Adaptive-Sync is an ingredient feature of a DisplayPort link and an industry standard that enables real-time adjustment of display refresh rates required by technologies like AMD FreeSync™ technology. AMD FreeSync™ technology is a unique AMD hardware/software solution that utilizes DisplayPort Adaptive-Sync protocols to enable user-facing benefits: smooth, tear-free, low-latency gameplay and video.
https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/free-sync-faq#faq-What-is-DisplayPort-Adaptive-Sync-and-how-does-it-differ-from-AMD-FreeSync™-technology?

That is why it feels a lot like designed to DisplayPort... FreeSync uses the VESA Adaptive Sync protocol to communicate.
 
LG displays are "GSYNC Compatible" which I believe is just HDMI 2.1 VRR. Gsync is supported on my B9 and RTX 2070 Super.

GSYNC compatible means support for VESA Adaptive-Sync with no need for proprietary GSYNC chip and has been tested with Nvidia cards.
 
GSYNC compatible means support for VESA Adaptive-Sync with no need for proprietary GSYNC chip and has been tested with Nvidia cards.

According to ViewSonic (who make monitors) "NVIDIA G-Sync uses the same principle as Adaptive Sync. But it relies on proprietary hardware that must be built into the display. With the additional hardware and strict regulations enforced by NVIDIA, monitors supporting G-Sync have tighter quality control and are more premium in price."

It's quite an achievement to take a basic requirement, like the host device sending a new timing signal to the display to adjustment the update frequency, and end up with half a dozen different and incompatible solutions. Well done, the tech industry. You're just marvellous. :???:
 
According to ViewSonic (who make monitors) "NVIDIA G-Sync uses the same principle as Adaptive Sync. But it relies on proprietary hardware that must be built into the display. With the additional hardware and strict regulations enforced by NVIDIA, monitors supporting G-Sync have tighter quality control and are more premium in price."

It's quite an achievement to take a basic requirement, like the host device sending a new timing signal to the display to adjustment the update frequency, and end up with half a dozen different and incompatible solutions. Well done, the tech industry. You're just marvellous. :???:

That was before 2019 though. There are also quality and performance advantages to the Gsync tech.
 
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According to ViewSonic (who make monitors) "NVIDIA G-Sync uses the same principle as Adaptive Sync. But it relies on proprietary hardware that must be built into the display. With the additional hardware and strict regulations enforced by NVIDIA, monitors supporting G-Sync have tighter quality control and are more premium in price."

It's quite an achievement to take a basic requirement, like the host device sending a new timing signal to the display to adjustment the update frequency, and end up with half a dozen different and incompatible solutions. Well done, the tech industry. You're just marvellous. :???:
Just you wait until Sony comes up with their fabulous proprietary solution! It will be great! :devilish:
 
Is it not based in VESA Adaptive Sync used in DisplayPort? That is why it seems to be more designed to DP.

Edit - Found it.


https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/free-sync-faq#faq-What-is-DisplayPort-Adaptive-Sync-and-how-does-it-differ-from-AMD-FreeSync™-technology?

That is why it feels a lot like designed to DisplayPort... FreeSync uses the VESA Adaptive Sync protocol to communicate.

Almost right. DP 1.0 had a rudimentary method of adjusting the refresh rate based on the needs of laptop devices to conserve power. Lower screen refresh meant a potential savings in energy used by the display. It wasn't really suited for gaming or quickly varying the refresh rate constantly.

AMD used that as the basis to create FreeSync making modifications to make it suitable for use cases (like gaming) requiring frequent quick changes in refresh frequency in order to sync the display to the graphics output of a GPU. AMD then took those changes and made a proposal to the VESA standards body to incorporate those changes into a VESA standard that became VESA Adaptive Sync.

Basically AMD didn't use VESA Adaptive Sync because it didn't exist until a few years after AMD created FreeSync and then AMD made the proposal to the VESA Standards body. :) It's more correct to say that VESA Adaptive Sync uses FreeSync since it's basically a form of FreeSync.

Since AMD wasn't collecting royalties for FreeSync some TV controller chipmakers with assistance by AMD built in support for FreeSync into their controller chips. Hence you had support for VRR via FreeSync over HDMI on HDMI TVs like LG, Samsung and other 2nd tier Korean display makers like Wasabi Mango and others. This started with HDMI 1.2. There are a LOT of HDMI 1.2 - 2.0+ TVs that use those controller chips but don't have FreeSync/VESA Adaptive Sync exposed to the user since they also require firmware support and most TV makers didn't bother to either enable it in the basic firmware that the chipmakers provide or don't choose to incorporate into the custom firmware that they create for their particular TV.

Eventually the HDMI group finally got around to releasing their version of VRR in HDMI 2.1 using VESA Adaptive Sync as a basis, but obviously with quite a few changes.

All of that was different from say NV who designed something from the ground up to provide variable refresh rate. They didn't want to use what was available on laptops (like what is in DP 1.0) because of 2 reasons. First, it wasn't suitable to gaming requirements. Second, they wanted full control so that they could monetize it and collect royalties from display makers who utilized their VRR implementation (which would come to be known as Gsync). Because of that, display makers who wanted to have Gsync on their displays had to purchase a Gsync module to be used in the manufacture of the display. To its credit that hardware module provided more capabilities than AMD's freely available FreeSync (which also came out later than Gsync).

However, since FreeSync/VESA Adaptive Sync (basically the same thing) is freely available with no royalties attached and it's "good enough" it has seen far wider adoption than Gsync (at one point the hardware modules for Gsync were 150 USD, no idea how much they are now). When NV finally broke down and supported VESA Adaptive Sync, they just labeled it as another form of Gsync on their end. :p And while not "officially supported" it obviously also works with FreeSync monitors that were available long before VESA adopted AMD's FreeSync (VESA Adaptive Sync).

Regards,
SB
 
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Can someone explain is it possible to have vrr in 12bit rgb@60 mode for games what cant maintain stable 60fps or is it YCbCr422@120 only?
 
Can someone explain is it possible to have vrr in 12bit rgb@60 mode for games what cant maintain stable 60fps or is it YCbCr422@120 only?

Are you asking about a specific piece of hardware as the source?
 
Weird, PS5 says the monitor doesn't support VRR boooooo

That's a given. Weird though, it def has Freesync so I thought it would work with VRR?
I have a couple of monitors that support VRR (one Freesync and one GSync) and 120hz, but not via HDMI. It could simply be an issue with the monitor not supporting any VRR standards on HDMI inputs.
 
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