Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2022] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]

[Remij]

But currently no game use fast I/O on PC and very few on current gen consoles, I just say than in the future it will continue to be like now I/O will be more heavy on PC CPU than consoles CPU even if the major part of the decompression is done on the GPU. I don't do any comparison with the current situation from a performance perspective.

But I'm contesting that. I don't think it will. In fact I directly disagree with that considering DirectStorage.

Why do you believe that? With end to end optimizations as well as essentially a doubling of PCIe bandwidth between RAM and VRAM... and obviously no GPU destined asset decompression being done on the CPU?

 

[chris1515]

But I'm contesting that. I don't think it will. In fact I directly disagree with that considering DirectStorage.

Why do you believe that? With end to end optimizations as well as essentially a doubling of PCIe bandwidth between RAM and VRAM... and obviously no GPU destined asset decompression being done on the CPU?

Because consoles CPU do less thing. This is just a fact. CPU data is compressed too for example and the CPU will be used to decompress the data. Same data check in will not be done by consoles CPU too. The Direct Storage I/O stack is faster but it doesn't mean that the CPU will do nothing. The thing done in hardware on consoles will be done by the PC CPU and the PC GPU.

 

[chris1515]

Indeed. The PS5 solution is a cost-effective one, tailored towards the rest of the system, API etc. Better than other platforms? Nah it isnt. Modern GPUs happen to be excellent for those applications (decompression/compression/parralell math), you get gobs of available BW/raw speeds as some new tests have shown way and way above what the PS5's fixed function blocks can achieve. Another advantage is scalability, you can scale along with more TF's available in the future, besides flexibility.
PS5 might be marginally more efficient as pointed out by others here, however the pc solution seems to be much more capable, much faster speeds, more flexible and it can scale along into the future, You also get the added benefit of lower latency due to DDR ram><CPU operations.
Dedicated GPU/CPU BW ensures theres tons of GB/s to play with, no contention there. The PS5 is a cost vs performance consideration at around a BOM of 500. The PC isnt restricted there.



Doubting the bolded part of your comment. A modern-day pc (Zen3/PCIE4 or 5/RTX3000 and newer) together with W11/DirectStorage teamed to a blazing fast modern nvme drive has virtually no disadvantages against the PS5's setup really. GPU is taking care of decompression, the heaviest part today on the CPU. DS will move that to the GPU as demo'ed results in almost 0% cpu usage. Theres no need to go above PS5-CPU specs to match or exceed it.

Again talk to me about performance when will see real game. I don't care about demo. The advantage of consoles they don't need to use any CPU or GPU power for I/O(just a little bit on Xbox Series side).

And in the future they talk about using ASIC* to do the decompression on PC too.

* A hardware decompressor

 

[Remij]

Because consoles CPU do less thing. This is just a fact. CPU data is compressed too for example and the CPU will be used to decompress the data. Same data check in will not be done by consoles CPU too. The Direct Storage I/O stack is faster but it doesn't mean that the CPU will do nothing. The thing done in hardware on consoles will be done by the PC CPU and the PC GPU.

Except now with DirectStorage, PC CPUs should be doing less regarding loading than before.. and yes, you're right... except that's been the case since forever. I'm not seeing how that gets worse than it is now.

 

[chris1515]

Except now with DirectStorage, PC CPUs should be doing less regarding loading than before.. and yes, you're right... except that's been the case since forever. I'm not seeing how that gets worse than it is now.

But again where did I say it will be worse than now? I have no idea of performance. I prefer wait real games.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Again It will help reduce IO management but Spiderman is a PS4 title. I don't think we can know anything about I/O performance using DirectStorage.

Well we know how much data Spiderman streams (up to 500MB/s) and we know the theoretical limit of the PS5 is 5.5GB/s or 11GB/s depending on whether the 500MB/s figure is pre-or post decompression (I'm not clear on that). So the absolute theoretical worse case scenario is 22x more work than Spiderman but in reality no game will come remotely close to that on a constant or even semi regular basis. Bearing in mind that Spiderman features extremely fast traversal of a dense environment using textures that despite it also being on PS4 are as high resolution as anything we're likely to see this generation, I doubt we'll see any game hit more than 4x it's streaming requirement. And Direct Storage should be able to reduce the IO overhead on PC by that factor with ease.

Where did I say it will cost more than now? I didn't give any indication of performance. I just say than in the future like now it will be more heavy to use fast I/O on PC CPU than on PS5 CPU and I can add Xbox Series CPU too.

Literally here:

"I don't expect Spiderman Miles Morales to push the SSD but in future title it will cost more on a PC CPU than PS5 CPU to decompress CPU data and manage memory to check in and other stuff"

 

[Remij]

But again where did I say it will be worse than now? I have no idea of performance. I prefer wait real games.

I see what you mean.. but in the end you're not really just saying that.. are you? You're trying to make a point with that statement... and what else could that be other than PC will be hit harder on the CPU when next gen games start releasing than it is currently?

Which is why I'm bringing up DirectStorage and saying that despite the increase in demand coming from next gen games... DirectStorage should result in the CPU doing less computation regarding loading/streaming than before.

 

[PSman1700]

Because consoles CPU do less thing. This is just a fact. CPU data is compressed too for example and the CPU will be used to decompress the data. Same data check in will not be done by consoles CPU too. The Direct Storage I/O stack is faster but it doesn't mean that the CPU will do nothing. The thing done in hardware on consoles will be done by the PC CPU and the PC GPU.

The consoles CPU isnt doing nothing either.

And in the future they talk about using ASIC* to do the decompression on PC too.

* A hardware decompressor

Again taken out of the air. You dont know that, i certainly hope not as i dont want decreased performance, flexibility and scaling.

 

[chris1515]

Well we know how much data Spiderman streams (up to 500MB/s) and we know the theoretical limit of the PS5 is 5.5GB/s or 11GB/s depending on whether the 500MB/s figure is pre-or post decompression (I'm not clear on that). So the absolute theoretical worse case scenario is 22x more work than Spiderman but in reality no game will come remotely close to that on a constant or even semi regular basis. Bearing in mind that Spiderman features extremely fast traversal of a dense environment using textures that despite it also being on PS4 are as high resolution as anything we're likely to see this generation, I doubt we'll see any game hit more than 4x it's streaming requirement. And Direct Storage should be able to reduce the IO overhead on PC by that factor with ease.


Literally here:

"I don't expect Spiderman Miles Morales to push the SSD but in future title it will cost more on a PC CPU than PS5 CPU to decompress CPU data and manage memory to check in and other stuff"

I expect game traversal to be faster to have more detailed object in the future with game exclusive to current gen console.

 

[chris1515]

The consoles CPU isnt doing nothing either.

For I/O management they do nearly nothing on Xbox side and this is nothing on PS5 side.

 

[PSman1700]

For I/O management they do nearly nothing on Xbox side and this is nothing on PS5 side.

Well thats not very indifferent on the PC when full DS is implemented (dev and OS side). I'd be more concerned if the PS5 can keep up in the near future rather than the PC.

 

[chris1515]

The consoles CPU isnt doing nothing either.



Again taken out of the air. You dont know that, i certainly hope not as i dont want decreased performance, flexibility and scaling.

Decreased performance. Again this is not coming from me but from presentation about Direct Storage. This is logic because GPU power is better spend on graphics than decompression.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Well we know how much data Spiderman streams (up to 500MB/s) and we know the theoretical limit of the PS5 is 5.5GB/s or 11GB/s depending on whether the 500MB/s figure is pre-or post decompression (I'm not clear on that).

This is for the PC version specifically? Or PS5? I know PS4 can only do about 1/10th that due to how they had to arrange things to account for HDD.

Did they really rearrange their streaming system to such a degree for the remastered? Hard to believe that there are still basic pop in issues at that speed

 

[pjbliverpool]

I expect game traversal to be faster to have more detailed object in the future with game exclusive to current gen console.

Naturally. But in future the PC will deal with that with the benefit of massively reduced IO overhead via Direct Storage, plus the complete removal of at least 80% of the current decompression requirement. So I don't see how things are going to be relatively worse than they currently are.

 

[Remij]

Essentially Chris is just saying games will become more demanding... and that PC CPUs still have to do more work than console CPUs...

lol... I mean.. yea tell us something we don't already know.. lol


There's got to be some other point than that... I feel like what Chris is wanting to say... is that next gen games are going to disproportionately affect PC CPUs more than next gen console CPUs... despite DirectStorage.

And again, I disagree with that.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Well thats not very indifferent on the PC when full DS is implemented (dev and OS side). I'd be more concerned if the PS5 can keep up in the near future rather than the PC.

As long as console is optimized well like always I think there is no issue for the Xbox consoles and PS5 for many years. Same with PC.

All of these solutions even series S will never be near a switch situation lmao. Anyone concerned about the current hw keeping up with their tasks should be at ease

 

[chris1515]

Essentially Chris is just saying games will become more demanding... and that PC CPUs still have to do more work than console CPUs...

lol... I mean.. yea tell us something we don't already know.. lol


There's got to be some other point than that... I feel like what Chris is wanting to say... is that next gen games are going to disproportionately affect PC CPUs more than next gen console CPUs... despite DirectStorage.

And again, I disagree with that.

But again I was not responding to you but @PSman1700 and he was not knowing how consoles I/O work and Direct Storage work.

 

[Remij]

Well thats not very indifferent on the PC when full DS is implemented (dev and OS side). I'd be more concerned if the PS5 can keep up in the near future rather than the PC.

I don't know if I'd go that far.. lol. Series consoles are the baseline, and Sony will make good use of the PS5 I/O. PS5 will essentially be considered and capable enough I/O-wise for all games in the near future. I don't see any PC games coming out that are pushing any boundaries here regarding that... it's mainly the Sony exclusives lol.

Although I'd love to see some PC indie devs go completely wild with innovation made possible by this newfound I/O capability.

 

[Remij]

But again I was not responding to you but @PSman1700 and he was not knowing how consoles I/O work and Direct Storage work.

Ok. Well, I guess we'll just have to see how things unfold. Should be pretty exciting as I really can't wait to see what the real next gen benchmark set by Sony is going to be. I fully believe Spider-Man 2 is going to look unbelievable, and will be the best looking game out regardless of platform. I'm pretty confident in that haha.

But I'm feeling pretty good about PC with DirectStorage for the future as well.

 

[PSman1700]

But again I was not responding to you but @PSman1700 and he was not knowing how consoles I/O work and Direct Storage work.

You clearly have no idea how it all works. Pasting various links and tweets doesnt change that. You seem to be having a crystal ball which tells you whats going to happen in the future.

PS5 will essentially be considered and capable enough I/O-wise for all games in the near future.

. I fully believe Spider-Man 2 is going to look unbelievable, and will be the best looking game out regardless of platform. I'm pretty confident in that haha.

Their subsequent pc versions wont dissapoint either