Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2022] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]

[davis.anthony]

Xbox Series X PCIe 4.0 SSD Rumored To Use 3.7GB/sec Phison Flash Controller

According to the software engineer's profile, the Xbox Series X makes use of the Phison PS5019-E19T, which is a DRAM-less SSD controller.

hothardware.com

It seems Xbox Series use this DRAM less controller and it has one ARM Cortex R5 CPU. The configuration of PS5 is a bit different. There is custom Marvell control flash controller with some DRAM and it was a surprise. And on the SOC a complex I/O with two ARM CPU probably R5, one DMAC controller, some coherency engine and the hardware decompressor and some SRAM. The SRAM is used from some translation table and as cache for compressed data. In a tweet Fabian Giesen(Epic RAD tools game for Kraken technology) told when dev package the data it is needed to be in chunk of 256kb maximum for fit inside the SRAM for be accessed by the I/O complex. Because of the cache, there is no buffer for compressed data in PS5 RAM, only the final uncompressed data.

PHISON Electronics Corp. - Consumer

www.phison.com

That's not evidence that XSX has a dedicated I/O co-processor like PS5 has.

This is nothing but you speculating and guessing.

 

[chris1515]

That's not evidence, that's you speculating and guessing.

Go see some teardown of Xbox Series And this is coming from the resume of one Xbox engineer working on the console. This is the same on PS5 side because of some teardwon we know the codename of the custom Marvell flash controller the PS5 is using.

 

[davis.anthony]

Go see some teardown of Xbox Series And this is going from the resume of one Xbox engineer working on the console. This is the same on PS5 side because of some teardwon we know the codename of the custom Marvell flash controller the PS5 is using.

Again, that's not evidence of anything factual.

You made a claim that so far you have failed to back up.

Provide an article, interview or presentation from Microsoft or a developer that clearly states the Series console also have a separate co-processor for I/O tasks like PS5 does.

Simply deflecting to a different subject or failing to supply said article, interview or presentation will only prove that you're claim is false.

 

[chris1515]

Xbox Series X SSD: SK Hynix 4D TLC NAND, Phison E19 memory controller

Xbox Series X/S consoles are optimized for read/write-heavy loads and increased durability thanks to TLC 4D NAND flash memory.

www.tweaktown.com

Info confirmed by a teardown of the Xbox Series. @davis.anthony before saying people speculate, learn to use a search engine. I need to find the information because this is known since a long time.

 

[chris1515]

Again, that's not evidence of anything factual.

You made a claim that so far you have failed to back up.

Provide an article, interview or presentation from Microsoft or a developer that clearly states the Series console also have a separate co-processor for I/O tasks like PS5 does.

Simply deflecting to a different subject or failing to supply said article, interview or presentation will only prove that you're claim is false.

Go learn to use a search engine and come back, this is a simple fact confirmed by teardown of the console.

 

[davis.anthony]

Xbox Series X SSD: SK Hynix 4D TLC NAND, Phison E19 memory controller

Xbox Series X/S consoles are optimized for read/write-heavy loads and increased durability thanks to TLC 4D NAND flash memory.

www.tweaktown.com

Info confirmed by a teardown of the Xbox Series. @davis.anthony before saying people speculate, learn to use a search engine. I need to find the information because this is known since a long time.

No that's not confirmed anything, that's confirming it has a flash controller.....wow.

 

[chris1515]

No that's not confirmed anything, that's confirming it has a flash controller.....wow.

Again this is the flash controller of the Xbox Series is using but don't talk about something you don't understand. ARM Cortex R5 inside flash controller is common. The difference between PS5 and Xbox Series and off the shelf SSD is the custom firmware and the integration with all the element inside the console. The difference between PS5 and Xbox Series, PS5 have two of them and don't need to use a little bit of CPU power for I/O.

PHISON Electronics Corp. - Consumer

www.phison.com

32-bit ARM Cortex R5 (Single CPU)

 

[chris1515]

Some high end PCIE 4 PC SSD flash controller have three ARM Cortex R5 ...

 

[davis.anthony]

Go learn to use a search engine and come back, this is a simple fact confirmed by teardown of the console.

Or maybe you just stop chatting nonsense in this forum?

Let me remind you of our comments....

Me...

You are correct, the larger difference is PS5 has co-processors that handle the tasks that occur after decompression where as Series console will still have to use the CPU.

Your reply...

No the Xbox Series have a co processor too just one against two on PS5. And the CPU usage for I/O is very low on Xbox Series.

That silly little flash controller you keep linking me too is BEFORE the decompression block in the Series consoles, if you look at my comment (And I've bolded it for you as you're clearing struggling) I was talking about AFTER decompression. So where is this co-processor in the Series consoles that's after decompression that you spoke of?

It seems there's two outcomes here

1. You're chatting complete nonsense and making false claims.
2. You can't read English.

Pick one.

 

[chris1515]

Or maybe you just stop chatting nonsense in this forum?

Let me remind you of our comments....

Me...



Your reply...



That silly little flash controller you keep linking me too is BEFORE the decompression block in the Series consoles, if you look at my comment (And I've bolded it for you as you're clearing struggling) I was talking about AFTER decompression. So where are co-processors in the Series console that are after decompression you spoke of?

It seems there's two outcomes here

1. You're chatting complete nonsense and making false claims.
2. You can't read English.

Pick one.

Sorry I was thinking you said Xbox has no coprocessor at all. And yes Xbox CPU needs to do something done on PS5 by the complex I/O. The coprocessor on PS5 case aren't on the flash controller but inside the SOC and the complex I/O.

And from MS comment this is not very heavy on CPU side. This is just a detail, 10% of one zen 2 core CPU is very low.

 

[chris1515]

It would be surprising the custom flash controller of PS5 doesn't have one ARM Cortex R5 but impossible to know because it is a custom part and no details on Marvell website just the codename.

 

[Remij]

Both seem very well designed for the capabilities of their respective storage drives.

I just want to hear MS start talking about their teams and how they're going to be fully taking advantage of it with their future games. Sony's teams have been talking since the beginning about how the PS5 will enable all these new things. In the end though, a lot of that work that went into designing the PS5 architecture, will ultimately be to make the life of the developer easier... rather than perhaps always being about pushing some new boundary. Better storage, better compression = more game on disc, and disk.

And that's a big part of it. Sony are really invested in removing those types of barriers to game design and production. Time = money, and it can pay dividends for the future.

 

[function]

There is always going to be some cpu overhead with data movement that isn’t exclusive to the gpu. The CPU either has to be informed that data move has been completed or has to check for itself. Either way it’s cost cycles.

There will also be some overhead from API calls from the game. The first point of call for a game that's using storage APIs will surely have to be the CPU. I don't see how each access request by the game won't cost at least some cycles. Probably a very small cost, but I can't see it being completely free (on any platform).

 

[dobwal]

Again, that's not evidence of anything factual.

You made a claim that so far you have failed to back up.

Provide an article, interview or presentation from Microsoft or a developer that clearly states the Series console also have a separate co-processor for I/O tasks like PS5 does.

Simply deflecting to a different subject or failing to supply said article, interview or presentation will only prove that you're claim is false.

Why is that necessary? What AMD CPU or GPU is devoid of MMUs, DMAs and other components that facilitate memory management.

Missing items on a SOC diagram is hardly evidence that the hardware is missing such component. PS4’s diagrams don’t prominently include the presence of Z lib decompression hardware even though it has them. The most common XB one diagrams shows them and MS gloated over its special “DMEs” which were DMAs that included that hardware and other functionality.

This gen’s diagrams are fairly lacking in detail in comparison to last gen. The current diagrams are hardly enough by themselves to demonstrate the exclusion or inclusion of any functionality.

 

[mr magoo]

There will also be some overhead from API calls from the game. The first point of call for a game that's using storage APIs will surely have to be the CPU. I don't see how each access request by the game won't cost at least some cycles. Probably a very small cost, but I can't see it being completely free (on any platform).

It’s impossible

“With DMA, the CPU first initiates the transfer, then it does other operations while the transfer is in progress, and it finally receives an interrupt from the DMA controller when the operation is done.”

 

[davis.anthony]

Why is that necessary? What AMD CPU or GPU is devoid of MMUs, DMAs and other components that facilitate memory management.

What? I simply made a statement confirming the difference between Series consoles and PS5 have in terms of dedicated I/O hardware.

Is that not allowed?

 

[dobwal]

What? I simply made a statement confirming the difference between Series consoles and PS5 have in terms of dedicated I/O hardware.

Is that not allowed?

It wasn't being direct just at you. The point being is that the difference in a diagram in terms of missing or added components shouldn't be construed as a difference in hardware. Series X diagrams sport an I/O, System and Media Hub. We aren't insinuating that the PS5 lacks two of three because its diagrams lacks the components.

 

[Below2D]

So, I just upgraded to a 13900K, RTX 4090, and 32GB of DDR 5600MHz from a 2080 Ti, 9900K, and 16GB of DDR4 3000MHz. The performance uplift is pretty insane but once again, Spider-Man is another culprit of poor performance. It runs well, extremely well even but that's a given considering the insane specs of my new PC. With Very High settings and RT on, it struggles to break past 100fps at 3440x1440 sometimes. Once again, I see my 4090 sitting at around 75% utilization. Miles Morales runs much better than the original game. Whereas I saw my performance dip to 70-ish in Spider-Man at max settings, Miles Morales never dipped below 90 and that's with RT Shadows set to Very High. It's also consistently running at 115fp+.

 

[dobwal]

It’s impossible

“With DMA, the CPU first initiates the transfer, then it does other operations while the transfer is in progress, and it finally receives an interrupt from the DMA controller when the operation is done.”

The interrupt itself creates overhead for the CPU. Its especially relevant for nvme SSDs because as low latency devices they have the capacity to flood the CPU with interrupts as completion rates increase exponentially.

It can create a situation where CPU spends such a significant amount of time context switching and servicing interrupts that it has a noticeable effect on performance.

 

[davis.anthony]

It wasn't being direct just at you.

So why quote me?