And as I said previously the extra shipping cost (more packaging, more weight, bigger box etc)
Console design and manufacturing comparison - effective cooling yada yada *spawn
- Thread starter Rikimaru
- Start date
And as I said previously the extra shipping cost (more packaging, more weight, bigger box etc)
pMax
Regular
...management? When you get your requirements, you can't but workaround. Sometime, it is hard to backtrack comments to the enterprise architect as engineer on big partitioned projects.
That assumes the external PSU actually reduces chance of failure; this is far from certain considering there's additional points of failure introduced by the PSU being external, including dust and debris buildup down on the floor (especially if used as a cat-snuggle), fan failure, foreign object invasion through cooling vents causing fan blockage or outright shorts, power cable damage/breaks and/or poor connection to the main unit...and so on.
Do you have any evidence at all the external PSU reduces chance of failure? To me as a layperson, there doesn't seem to be any credible indications of that at all, and quite a lot of evidence pointing that risk of failure might actually increase.
From my layperson speculation, it would seem MS put the PSU externally purely to simplify the cooling design of the main unit, not to reduce risk of failure of anything. This way, they didn't have to think about creating specific airpaths inside the case to ensure cooling for any auxiliary components (since there aren't any), they just slapped everything in a huge enough box to fit the main heatsink and stuck a big fan on top of it; The End.
I know of a portable digital radio where the PSU gave out because the output power wire was so frickin' thin the slightest motion (it was mostly stationary) broke the wire at the plug end. Required a replacement PSU to be bought.
/anecdote
/anecdote
D
Deleted member 11852
Guest
I've had two external PSUs fritz out and both were computers. The original Commodore 64 PSU (which was so delicate it broke if you sneezed near it, the warranty replacement died after 9 months then I got a third party Evesham Micros PSU which lasted until I sold the 64) and the external brick for my Dell XPS2. The UK electrical system is pretty stable though and I run most equipment through surge protectors.
If the PSU dies it's way more desirable if you can replace just the PSU rather than the entire thing, but you won't know if the PSU has caused damage in the main equipment until you get it replaced. The Commodore 64 used to have an internal fuse to guard against this! This is the kind of faith Commodore had in their own PSUs!
That assumes the external PSU actually reduces chance of failure; this is far from certain considering there's additional points of failure introduced by the PSU being external, including dust and debris buildup down on the floor (especially if used as a cat-snuggle), fan failure, foreign object invasion through cooling vents causing fan blockage or outright shorts, power cable damage/breaks and/or poor connection to the main unit...and so on.
Do you have any evidence at all the external PSU reduces chance of failure? To me as a layperson, there doesn't seem to be any credible indications of that at all, and quite a lot of evidence pointing that risk of failure might actually increase.
From my layperson speculation, it would seem MS put the PSU externally purely to simplify the cooling design of the main unit, not to reduce risk of failure of anything. This way, they didn't have to think about creating specific airpaths inside the case to ensure cooling for any auxiliary components (since there aren't any), they just slapped everything in a huge enough box to fit the main heatsink and stuck a big fan on top of it; The End.
As a lay person you do have the chance to remove a source of heat from the console. MY xbox one psu barely gets warm. and Its out of the way behind my shelving unit.
I had a launch day 20 gig xbox 360 that only recently gave up the ghost. But the power supply went on it a few years ago first. I was able to buy a new psu for $30 and be up and running after 3 days.
What would be the situation with an internal blown psu ? I would imagine I would have to ship it to the company to fix it. If its out of warrenty I'd assuming shipping and service fees would be paid for by myself ? Seems like a problem.
I had 9 xbox 360s in the house. Wasn't hard to try another power supply
But also there is a light on the power supply. If its green your okay. If it doesn't light the supply isn't working. If its red the power supply over heated.
Rikimaru
Veteran
But PSU could fry console too. How would you know this without spare PSU?I had 9 xbox 360s in the house. Wasn't hard to try another power supply
How common would you say this is, to have even ONE extra xbox (much less eight) with a suitable power supply (not sure if phat 360s and slims use same or different power connectors) in the same house?
You're the very definition of an outlier, and thus, not representative for the purpose of this discussion.
It could have been the console. But the psu has a built in surge and aside from that the power supply will light up green if its working , it doesn't even need a console. Sure both the supply and console could be fried , but a quick trip to the store will tell me that when I buy a new power supply. I can't really do that with an internal psu.
How common would you say this is, to have even ONE extra xbox (much less eight) with a suitable power supply (not sure if phat 360s and slims use same or different power connectors) in the same house?
You're the very definition of an outlier, and thus, not representative for the purpose of this discussion.
Its not common , that's why the psu has lights on it. Its an easy way to tell whats going on.
Yup, the psu having a status light on it makes it very easy to troubleshoot problems like that over the phone. On a launch X360 a coworker was having issues so he called me in the evening and I asked "do you see RROD? No, okay do you see light on the external brick? No, okay the brick is dead." The next day he brought the console in to work and I brought my matching brick in just to validate it before he bought a replacement brick. Sure enough that was the issue.
I dont remember how the bricks are compatible, but you can use some older ones in newer models or vice versa but it really depends on the power changes. The plugs are specially keyed so you cant use the wrong brick on the wrong console. Makes it impossible for consumers to screw that up.
I dont remember how the bricks are compatible, but you can use some older ones in newer models or vice versa but it really depends on the power changes. The plugs are specially keyed so you cant use the wrong brick on the wrong console. Makes it impossible for consumers to screw that up.
That assumes the external PSU actually reduces chance of failure; this is far from certain considering there's additional points of failure introduced by the PSU being external, including dust and debris buildup down on the floor (especially if used as a cat-snuggle), fan failure, foreign object invasion through cooling vents causing fan blockage or outright shorts, power cable damage/breaks and/or poor connection to the main unit...and so on.
Do you have any evidence at all the external PSU reduces chance of failure? To me as a layperson, there doesn't seem to be any credible indications of that at all, and quite a lot of evidence pointing that risk of failure might actually increase.
From my layperson speculation, it would seem MS put the PSU externally purely to simplify the cooling design of the main unit, not to reduce risk of failure of anything. This way, they didn't have to think about creating specific airpaths inside the case to ensure cooling for any auxiliary components (since there aren't any), they just slapped everything in a huge enough box to fit the main heatsink and stuck a big fan on top of it; The End.
http://www.cui.com/catalog/resource/reliability-considerations
Typically, a component’s life doubles for every 10°C decrease in temperature and this temperature-versus life relationship is based on both the theoretical framework of the Arrhenius equation, which relates temperature and aging acceleration, plus a significant amount of industry test data.
It's a good system. Would be nice to have more user servicable parts. If users could swap out drives and PSU inside a box for a friend's to test, it'd remove some of the repair costs. That said, I don't think I've ever experienced a PSU failure in my life (he says, invoking the gods of irony who will now strike down every PSU in the house over the next two months
). I guess the benefits to consumers as described by you and eastmen aren't really economical in the long run.Yes, and...?
Your little speech is meaningless without some additional corroborative data, such as the average running temperature of respective power supplies, the overall quality of components used and dust buildup susceptibility for example. This is just off the top of my head, I'm not an expert so someone who is might have additional considerations to list.
This has nothing to do with a ps being internal vs external.
The operating temperature of the ps4 power supply (along with everything else) is kept within a software controlled envelope. The more power is required from the ps4, the more airflow it gets. They also control the actual air temperature to respect that envelope.
Xb1 ps is using a colder supply of air, but the fan doesn't provide much of it, and the components are tightly packed. So there is no indication the operating temp of the critical parts are any different.
It's the sum of the failure points that determines reliability. XB1 external ps have additional points of failure. The difference between 500,000 mtbf and 400,000 mtbf is meaningless in a system which adds a fan rated at 30,000 with a known path to failure from dust. Arrhenius equation only applies to the caps, no the rest of solid state and coils. Capacitor aging will never come into account, specially considering the power supply is rated at twice the max consumption of the console.
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Its more meaningful than your "I'm just a lay person so lets me think of some aspects that may or may not matter because I admit I don't know".
Ultimately its all dependent on how you design your product. An internal placement can be accommodated with a higher rated more robust PSU, so there is nothing to say that the PS4 PSU failure is any higher than the Xbox One.
But external may mean a less stressful environment which means cheaper components like a cheap fan may suffice to achieve the type of typical lifespan that MS wants for their product.
Disclaimer: My comments are not meant to be interpreted as PS4 vs. XB1 in nature unless explicitly described as being so.
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i guess it depends how the PSUs are rated at for it's components. The paper suggests 85 degrees C for rating, which frankly I think is quite high.
This isn't evidence of anything, but for the sake of posting information for discussion:
PS4 FLIR images. It looks like about 131-140F balanced under load for the temperature out the back (Gen 1). Curious to see what UC4 will look like
http://www.planetextech.com/profiles/blogs/playstation-4-thermal-images
Xbox One for comparison
http://www.planetextech.com/profiles/blogs/xbox-one-thermal-images
103F balanced under load for the PSU it would appear.
So while we don't know how hot the actual PSUs are getting, we get an idea of their operating environment. It's not a lot of insight into reliability, but if I were to cost cut, the external brick which is running in a cooler environment should be able to in theory run cheaper parts.
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