Console design and manufacturing comparison - effective cooling yada yada *spawn

[Rikimaru]

How much effort do you think they should put into a product with a limited production life? And where do you think they should concentrate on that effort. The original sku may be on retail shelves for 2-3 years but are meant to have a lifetime that spans beyond their generation.

My thought is MS studied the sales and usage data of the 360 and realized there is a significant impact on sales and user retention when consoles die early on consumers. No company wants to lose loyal consumers because their products don't last. And having loyal consumers spend hundreds of dollars to replace defective or broken consoles is a waste. Because those customers are spending hundreds of dollars on a low margin product instead of high margin and more lucrative products like games, services or accessories.

I think they also accounted for the workload of the Xbox one. Its voice control and HDMI in means that a portion of its hardware may be always active when the TV is in use. Plus there isn't any historical usage data on MS approach for the Xb1. So, designing its new gen console to be quieter as well more reliable and longer lasting while possibly enduring more use over that time probably spurred a more conservative approach where size is less of a priority.

In the hey day of Nintendo where the bulk of product sales were seen with the original form factor, producing a robust initial small design made sense. Today where Slim version are expected 2-3 years after launch and the potential of most of sales coming after that change in the form factor, there is no point in highly prioritizing size anymore.

Original xbox one design exist 2 years already. It's a very long life for consumer electronics.
They should have made it better. MS literally shipped 3 bricks in the box each with own fan. And a lot of PSU's make noise in standby. There also was a widespread coil noise issue after first cost reduction.
Well of course they were afraid of RROD fiasco but still.

PS4 reliability is not worse than xbox one despite using more power (original CUH-1000), being smaller and having PSU inside.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

And a lot of PSU's make noise in standby. There also was a widespread coil noise issue after first cost reduction.

You need to support this view with evidence. PS4 has also suffered from coil whine, for example. If you want people to believe MS is inferior at making hardware that works and does its job, you'll need to provide quantitative data supporting that.

 

[dobwal]

Original xbox one design exist 2 years already. It's a very long life for consumer electronics.

If they can make it better why haven't they done so? Both the OG and the 360 were already on their 3rd revision at this point in their life. The fact that MS has supposedly avoided any notable revision for the Xbox One seems to point to either there isn't a strong motivation by MS to cheapen production costs or there lacks any troublesome issue that might warrant a revision.

I don't know about anybody else, but the fact that xb1 hasn't seen any revisions makes me more comfortable with my launch unit. The lack of revisions usually point to a robust design. At least I am not witnessing the xbox one getting a revision within its first two years where a heatsink is replaced by a better design only to revert to the original design years later once power consumption had been cut, which happened with the 360.

 

[MrFox]

The coil whine has nothing to do with design anyway, it was just a bad supply of defective parts.

The tiny fan in the power supply however looks like a bad idea for a system that claims to have been designed with reliability in mind. It's yet another single point of failure notorious for sleeve bearings locking up from dust buildup. I'd love to hear the reasoning for this decision. The fan in Kinect2 is also small, but it's a very high quality one, it's also something that isn't put on the floor sucking up dust over time like the power supply will.

Spoiler

Hey, as an equal opportunity fanboy, I also think there are some flaws in the PS4 which could mean the two consoles are probably equal in terms of reliability in the long term... but since nobody mentioned these flaws I certainly won't. I will die with this secret!

 

[iroboto]

The coil whine has nothing to do with design anyway, it was just a bad supply of defective parts.

The tiny fan in the power supply however looks like a bad idea for a system that claims to have been designed with reliability in mind. It's yet another single point of failure notorious for sleeve bearings locking up from dust buildup. I'd love to hear the reasoning for this decision. The fan in Kinect2 is also small, but it's a very high quality one, it's also something that isn't put on the floor sucking up dust over time like the power supply will.

Spoiler

Hey, as an equal opportunity fanboy, I also think there are some flaws in the PS4 which could mean the two consoles are probably equal in terms of reliability in the long term... but since nobody mentioned these flaws I certainly won't. I will die with this secret!

Lol. I don't mind criticism, I just want it to be (a) relevant to the topic and (b)be backed up with some sort of real evidence. That being said yes I agree with you. But the PSU being separated has its advantages but being choked up with dust is not one of them. But at least we can clean the device from time to time to clear it as an annual maintenance precaution.

Xbox's largest hurdle is of course it's library. It would help bring positive news to them if Xbox re-launched with a large group of apps and app-games before Christmas with the new dashboard.

 

[pMax]

the Xbox One board looks very like something that was laid out largely by hand. I can't believe any current (or semi-recent) professional PCB layout software produced that design.

...of course it is laid by hand. But look at:
1) the symmetry/order of components, and the way they look on the board.
2) the empty spaces. PCB costs.

The PS board was puzzling us initially, given all that empty spaces here and there.
Redesigning of those boards usually happen to save costs - if PS did more, it means they found ways to cut more on it .

 

[goonergaz]

Lol. I don't mind criticism, I just want it to be (a) relevant to the topic and (b)be backed up with some sort of real evidence. That being said yes I agree with you. But the PSU being separated has its advantages but being choked up with dust is not one of them. But at least we can clean the device from time to time to clear it as an annual maintenance precaution..

Like what? From a design PoV maybe, but consumer wise I cannot think of one advantage.

Don't get me wrong, I wish the PS4 was quieter - I would have taken a larger box over an external PSU though.

 

[iroboto]

Like what? From a design PoV maybe, but consumer wise I cannot think of one advantage.

Don't get me wrong, I wish the PS4 was quieter - I would have taken a larger box over an external PSU though.

It should run much cooler provided it is not illogically placed. The case and fan are dedicated to cooling down the unit.

With exception to PC PSUs which by enlarge is a completely individual unit with not one but 2 fans, comparing it to PS4, the singular fan is doing triple duty trying to manage the PSU and APU as well as any other components inside that are heating up; It's a lot of pressure on a singular fan.

APUs increase in temperature as its loads increases which puts more pressure on the PSU to increase its output which in turn requires more cooling to keep resistance down or otherwise resulting in fluctuation Brownouts which should/could cause crashing.

But aside from an theoretical case (because as consumers we make purchasing decisions based on the assumption that Sony did due diligence with stress testing so that this can't happen), something to consider would be that your components cannot be replaced without replacing the whole unit. If the fan starts to slow down because of dust or poor lubrication the ps4 will experience huge temperature increases compared to what the Xbox would undergo if the PSU fan experienced similar slow down.

tldr; ps4 fans should in theory have a much shorter life span than Xbox ones. They already spin faster for longer because they are smaller and required to cool a larger load, and any degradation in performance would just require that fan to work harder and harder.

 

[dobwal]

Like what? From a design PoV maybe, but consumer wise I cannot think of one advantage.

Don't get me wrong, I wish the PS4 was quieter - I would have taken a larger box over an external PSU though.

The only one I can think of in regards to an external PSU, is that it is more easily replaced if it ever fails.

 

[goonergaz]

@iroboto Yes, like I said - from design PoV it makes sense, however, as a consumer I hate having wires everywhere - let alone some ugly power brick...and all I care about is me.

And as for dragging the PS4 lifespan into this, whilst I tend to agree the facts are there's nothing to show (other than noise levels) that the PS4 reliability has been affected by Sonys design choice to put a lot more power and the power supply into a significantly smaller space.

 

[goonergaz]

The only one I can think of in regards to an external PSU, is that it is more easily replaced if it ever fails.

Well I'd like to think it being external means the chances of it failing are even less than the incredibly low failure rate for the console as a whole...so hardly a selling point!

 

[iroboto]

@iroboto Yes, like I said - from design PoV it makes sense, however, as a consumer I hate having wires everywhere - let alone some ugly power brick...and all I care about is me.

And as for dragging the PS4 lifespan into this, whilst I tend to agree the facts are there's nothing to show (other than noise levels) that the PS4 reliability has been affected by Sonys design choice to put a lot more power and the power supply into a significantly smaller space.

As a consumer, I wouldn't use any of my points as negatives against the PS4 unless you are very sensitive to noise. I think the general assumption is adequate testing should have been involved in ensuring the units don't fail before they expect them to - and that's reasonable expectation. But that is the general advantage of having an external PSU for a console, but it would be better if the PSU didn't have to share cooling with the rest of the unit. So a PS4 with a separate fan for both APU and PSU each venting in their own directions is the most ideal. Though you are right in that it sucks to have so many wires around, but I bury the cable under the media centre, so it's only a disaster when I go back there.

But if we are to just go with basic physics, a ball bearing running faster is just bound to wear out quicker than one running slower (provided they are of equal quality)

edit: to note, the newer variants of PS4 have improved fan designed and a larger heatsink which I understand has quieted down the unit significantly.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

With exception to PC PSUs which by enlarge is a completely individual unit with not one but 2 fans, comparing it to PS4, the singular fan is doing triple duty trying to manage the PSU and APU as well as any other components inside that are heating up; It's a lot of pressure on a singular fan.

The PS4 design utilises a centrifugal fan with heat dispersal channeled directionally. All things being equal they are more reliable than axial fans and using pressure results in higher energy efficiency because the fan can be run at a slower speed.

As a consumer, I wouldn't use any of my points as negatives against the PS4 unless you are very sensitive to noise.

Noise is a downside. Channeled hot air at higher pressures, even when the fan is running at a lower RPM, means more noise. In acoustic terms, it's like a jet engine.

 

[dobwal]

Well I'd like to think it being external means the chances of it failing are even less than the incredibly low failure rate for the console as a whole...so hardly a selling point!

Huh? You ask for a benefit not the chances of realizing that benefit. LOL.

And isn't externalizing the PSU and reducing its chance of failure a benefit to consumers in itself?

 

[iroboto]

The PS4 design utilises a centrifugal fan with heat dispersal channeled directionally. All things being equal they are more reliable than axial fans and using pressure results in higher energy efficiency because the fan can be run at a slower speed.

Noise is a downside. Channeled hot air at higher pressures, even when the fan is running at a lower RPM, means more noise. In acoustic terms, it's like a jet engine.

hmm. This seems to go against what I've traditionally felt with PC parts. No one overclocks with a blower, but then again, people who overclock have cases that are constantly pouring in fresh air. GPUS have moved to blower cooling because of SLI and what not, you don't want 4 cards dumping that hot air back in the case unless you have great case cooling.

Blowers are good for pushing out heat from the case, great for small restricted spaced like channeling flow through a laptop. But it's not a superior cooling solution to large fresh air being pulled in.
My personal preferences for noise and cooling since I have an enthusiast cooler case I'd always choose this:
http://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/hd7970-dc2-3d.jpeg

over this

http://hothardware.com/articleimages/Item1777/small_radeon-hd-7970-1.JPG

 

[Deleted member 11852]

hmm. This seems to go against what I've traditionally felt with PC parts. No one overclocks with a blower, but then again, people who overclock have cases that are constantly pouring in fresh air.

ATX PC cases typically do not have a design where heat is specifically channeled in a way where it can be vented under pressure from a centrifugal fan. However, the PS4 is designed exactly like this. In terms of thermal control, the PS4 shares more in common with Apple laptops than it does with a PC - or the Xbox One.

Centrifugal pressure venting is very reliable although the sound it makes can be distressing because it sounds like the venting system is under stress. It's not, like a jet engine the sound is caused by a lot of hot air being vented under pressure.

 

[iroboto]

ATX PC cases typically do not have a design where heat is specifically channeled in a way where it can be vented under pressure from a centrifugal fan. However, the PS4 is designed exactly like this. In terms of thermal control, the PS4 shares more in common with Apple laptops than it does with a PC - or the Xbox One.

Centrifugal pressure venting is very reliable although the sound it makes can be distressing because it sounds like the venting system is under stress. It's not, like a jet engine the sound is caused by a lot of hot air being vented under pressure.

Agreed, that's pretty dead on. So in some ways this does invalidate what i wrote earlier then. We have no way of measuring or knowing how fast the fan speed is on either XBO or PS4 without metrics. So I have no claim over reliability or life span.

 

[goonergaz]

Huh? You ask for a benefit not the chances of realizing that benefit. LOL.

And isn't externalizing the PSU and reducing its chance of failure a benefit to consumers in itself?

So it's worth having an ugly external power supply solution if it means the chance of failure is slightly improved? In which case all electrical appliances should follow suit.

Also, and external solution is more than likely a more expensive solution from materials to shipping...so paying extra on top for very minial (if only potential) return.

 

[goonergaz]

edit: to note, the newer variants of PS4 have improved fan designed and a larger heatsink which I understand has quieted down the unit significantly.

Well time will tell, my PS4 was really quite and ended up sounding like a jet engine then the new one I got was really quiet and is now begining to get noisey. I wish they had either had a better solution (likely larger case) or implimented some sort of removable filter at the air intake vents so they could catch all/most dust and be cleaned easily.

 

[iroboto]

Well time will tell, my PS4 was really quite and ended up sounding like a jet engine then the new one I got was really quiet and is now begining to get noisey. I wish they had either had a better solution (likely larger case) or implimented some sort of removable filter at the air intake vents so they could catch all/most dust and be cleaned easily.

I'm not sure if that's possible. I think if you follow above we've really determined how different Sony and Xbox went at their designs. In particular Xbox was aiming for low noise and high cooling - they probably over engineered their cooling a bit given the size of the cooler and the respective wattage XBO can employ. But the result of that is to have a large case with large vents.

Sony was going for a smaller device, which means you have to organize and build your internals to create a high degree of pressurized air flow - hence why the internals look the way they do (have to make sure all the airflow is directed), and the noise, but it's still cooling.

If Xbox wants to go slim, they'll have to revisit a lot more than just reducing the board and chip size, it's not very easy to keep the noise level down with small devices that get hot.