Console design and manufacturing comparison - effective cooling yada yada *spawn

[MrFox]

ps4 fans should in theory have a much shorter life span than Xbox ones. They already spin faster for longer because they are smaller and required to cool a larger load, and any degradation in performance would just require that fan to work harder and harder.

It's usually dust and loss of lubrication that makes a fan fail, those factors are much more amplified by temperature than by RPM. (this can be proven with the fans datasheets) They last almost forever in idea conditions, like server rooms with clean air.

XB1 fan has it's major heat source right under it, and it sucks up the hottest air as slowly as possible, which puts the motor in a high temperature situation, while the PS4 fan sucks the coldest air. High temp reduces the viscosity of the bearings lubrication, and that help dust infiltrate through the seal. There are ways to prevent this, by having a lubricant which has it's ideal viscosity at a higher temperature, which MS would probably have planned.

The motor of the fan on the PS4 is massive (delta KSB?), I tested the margin available and it can go much higher in RPM than necessary. The centrifugal design means the air, along with the bearing-destroying dust it carries, will never be in the path of the motor. That is not the case with an axial fan which creates a vortex where the motor is. The smaller motor of the fan on the XB1 cannot reach the same air pressure, but it also doesn't have to because of the lower wattage, this evens out.

This was the biggest problem with the PS3/360 launch models, the fans at their highest RPM were barely powerful enough and they were playing with fire reaching dangerously high temperatures, without enough sensors to monitor the dangerous envelope. XB1 and PS4 solved that problem in a very different way. XB1 sucks the hot air at the end of the chain, so everything else in the box gets the cold air, while PS4 has multiple temperature monitoring and controls the fan to keep all parts within the margin. The PS4 fan is basically in the middle of the chain, sensitive parts before, less sensitive parts after.

TL;DR
I'm just geeking out, nobody expects anything like the PS3/360 RROD/YLOD situation. After 2 years from launch, if there was a reliability issue we would have seen some widespread problems by now. With XB1, better clean the power supply fan once in a while, and the PS4 needs the side air intakes to be vaccuum often.

 

[goonergaz]

I'm not sure if that's possible. I think if you follow above we've really determined how different Sony and Xbox went at their designs. In particular Xbox was aiming for low noise and high cooling - they probably over engineered their cooling a bit given the size of the cooler and the respective wattage XBO can employ. But the result of that is to have a large case with large vents.

Sony was going for a smaller device, which means you have to organize and build your internals to create a high degree of pressurized air flow - hence why the internals look the way they do (have to make sure all the airflow is directed), and the noise, but it's still cooling.

If Xbox wants to go slim, they'll have to revisit a lot more than just reducing the board and chip size, it's not very easy to keep the noise level down with small devices that get hot.

What? To add a removable filter system...can't have been that hard, if I didn't want to make my PS4 look ugly I'm sure I could just do a crappy mod. Likewise I may be dumbing it down a bit, but I would have thought more space between components might help with more heatsinks (etc) to help dissipate the heat better and keep the fan speeds lower...or at least minimise when it hits the jet engine speed!

 

[iroboto]

What? To add a removable filter system...can't have been that hard, if I didn't want to make my PS4 look ugly I'm sure I could just do a crappy mod. Likewise I may be dumbing it down a bit, but I would have thought more space between components might help with more heatsinks (etc) to help dissipate the heat better and keep the fan speeds lower...or at least minimise when it hits the jet engine speed!

hehe like a hair dryer filter? I suppose that would work. I was referencing about increasing the case size.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Agreed, that's pretty dead on. So in some ways this does invalidate what i wrote earlier then. We have no way of measuring or knowing how fast the fan speed is on either XBO or PS4 without metrics. So I have no claim over reliability or life span.

No and really the fans speeds aren't comparable because they are different sizes and are performing different functions. The fans in the Xbox One are a conventional design to circulate/direct air. The fan in the PS4 is pulling in cooler air from outside the chassis and creating air pressure in the venting system. Once the hot air - transferred from the two heat pipes - is mixed in, physics does the rest and the hot air exits via the rear exhaust port.

In terms of reliability, all things being equal, simpler designs are more reliable and centrifugal fans are simpler in design than axial fans. Then factor in that dust doesn't tend to build up as quick because of the air pressure and you have the answer why centrifugal cooling solutions are hugely popular.

I wish they had either had a better solution (likely larger case) or implimented some sort of removable filter at the air intake vents so they could catch all/most dust and be cleaned easily.

Particle filters that will catch dust but not interfere with the airflow critical for air pressure to be created by the centrifugal fan are expensive. And need to be changed regularly.

edit: Incidentally, BRiT will likely (and rightly) flip out when he see's all this PS4 fan bollocks here.

 

[iroboto]

No and really the fans speeds aren't comparable because they are different sizes and are performing different functions. The fans in the Xbox One are a conventional design to circulate/direct air. The fan in the PS4 is pulling in cooler air from outside the chassis and creating air pressure in the venting system. Once the hot air - transferred from the two heat pipes - is mixed in, physics does the rest and the hot air exits via the rear exhaust port.

In terms of reliability, all things being equal, simpler designs are more reliable and centrifugal fans are simpler in design than axial fans. Then factor in that dust doesn't tend to build up as quick because of the air pressure and you have the answer why centrifugal cooling solutions are hugely popular.



Particle filters that will catch dust but not interfere with the airflow critical for air pressure to be created by the centrifugal fan are expensive. And need to be changed regularly.

edit: Incidentally, BRiT will likely (and rightly) flip out when he see's all this PS4 fan bollocks here.

Though we stayed technical. It wasn't so much PS4 that was in this discussion as it was a good example of how cooling would need to work for XBO if they want to get it down to that size.
But if low noise continues to be a requirement for XBO going forward, I don't see how much they can realistically shrink the model without changing the fan type.
And at the least we've got good directions on the goals here for the devices.

 

[AzBat]

Raise your hand if you're tired of the PS4 fans(pun intended) talk in the Xbox thread.

Tommy McClain

 

[Rikimaru]

We could also talk about Wii U design an assembly. Which I also think are better than Xbox One's.

Comparisons are inevitable. You do not see much comparisons in PS4 threads because there are not many things that PS4 could adopt from Xbox One.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I have no problem with console build comparisons on the forum, just in a different thread. None of this really fits into xbox news or rumours.

Edit: It's not even in the right forum. Build comparison is probably better in the tech sub-forum.

 

[MrFox]

I fully agree it's off topic and probably should be deleted or spun off (only if it has a really funny title), but these sony comparisons are started by the same xbox fans for the last 2 years. It's normal, as the goal is trying to figure out how MS can get back on an equal competitive footing. That's why it happens here and not in the PS4 thread. However you can't expect a statement like "MS making a small console will force Sony to go all Digital" to remain undisputed. Comparisons can be fun.
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/news-rumors-xbox-one-codename-durango.52436/page-602

I never come here unless there's a statement I disagree with, or something I consider technically false and I wish to correct it, or when the discussions is a topic that interest me professionally (like fans).

 

[milk]

As an xbox owner with no ps4, I am not bothered much by those comparisons. But that's me.

 

[AzBat]

I fully agree it's off topic and probably should be deleted or spun off (only if it has a really funny title), but these sony comparisons are started by the same xbox fans for the last 2 years. It's normal, as the goal is trying to figure out how MS can get back on an equal competitive footing. That's why it happens here and not in the PS4 thread. However you can't expect a statement like "MS making a small console will force Sony to go all Digital" to remain undisputed. Comparisons can be fun.
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/news-rumors-xbox-one-codename-durango.52436/page-602

I never come here unless there's a statement I disagree with, or something I consider technically false and I wish to correct it, or when the discussions is a topic that interest me professionally (like fans).

So basically all the time? I never go in PS4 threads PERIOD. My main problem is one little post slighting Sony can spawn multiple Sony posts from multiple Sony fans. It's almost like a mob comes out to ruin our thread. I have no problem with dealing punishment to whoever starts it. I'd just like come into my little corner I call home & not be bothered with all the BS. I'm done for reals.

Tommy McClain

 

[Shifty Geezer]

...implimented some sort of removable filter at the air intake vents so they could catch all/most dust and be cleaned easily.

That'd be easy to jury rig with some fine fabric, wire or something for a frame, and blue tack to keep it in place. Better engineering skills or a 3D printer could produce a more visual synergistic design.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

That'd be easy to jury rig with some fine fabric, wire or something for a frame, and blue tack to keep it in place.

Only if the console is at sea, otherwise you'll want to jerry-rig it

 

[MrFox]

So basically all the time? I never go in PS4 threads PERIOD. My main problem is one little post slighting Sony can spawn multiple Sony posts from multiple Sony fans. It's almost like a mob comes out to ruin our thread. I have no problem with dealing punishment to whoever starts it. I'd just like come into my little corner I call home & not be bothered with all the BS. I'm done for reals.

Tommy McClain

It's because you didn't notice the wonderful job being done by the mods in the PS4 thread, such cleanup, such spawns, wow...

 

[iroboto]

I fully agree it's off topic and probably should be deleted or spun off (only if it has a really funny title), but these sony comparisons are started by the same xbox fans for the last 2 years. It's normal, as the goal is trying to figure out how MS can get back on an equal competitive footing. That's why it happens here and not in the PS4 thread. However you can't expect a statement like "MS making a small console will force Sony to go all Digital" to remain undisputed. Comparisons can be fun.
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/news-rumors-xbox-one-codename-durango.52436/page-602

I never come here unless there's a statement I disagree with, or something I consider technically false and I wish to correct it, or when the discussions is a topic that interest me professionally (like fans).

it was a good discussion. I actually liked the fan discussion. I looked at Xbox 360 Slim E and its designed the same way, axial as well. It's much quieter compared to their previous models, but because of their choice to go axial based fans, the unit could not be slimmed down significantly.

When looking at PS2 slim/PS3/PS4 they've been adopting centrifugal fans for some time now, it's just been an evolution for them to design consoles with a centrifugal fan, much like Xbox has been evolving their designs.

MS can make centrifugal designs if they wish to, looking at Surface Pro 3 is such an example.

 

[dobwal]

So it's worth having an ugly external power supply solution if it means the chance of failure is slightly improved? In which case all electrical appliances should follow suit.

Also, and external solution is more than likely a more expensive solution from materials to shipping...so paying extra on top for very minial (if only potential) return.

Thats user dependent. I don't have any revulsion to the presence of an external PSU. I don't see the point as I have numerous devices with external power packs. And its not like internal PSUs were an evolution of user critiques. In fact, the desire of users for ever smaller devices have driven up the use of external PSUs. The Xbox operates in a space where external PSUs are common.

And since I don't any particular affinity to either solution, any benefits that one offers over the other no matter how small is welcomed. If I owned a PS4, I would find some solace in not worrying the dust that an external PSU would collect under my EC. While as an Xbox owner, I find comfort in the fact that a bad PSU won't require me to pack up my console to send for repairs or scrounge up some tools and laptop so that I can use youtube to attempt repair/replace it myself. I will just spend $20-25 dollars and plug in a new one.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's because you didn't notice the wonderful job being done by the mods in the PS4 thread, such cleanup, such spawns, wow...

Even if true (and it might be!), that can be interpreted as us caring more about the quality of the PS threads.

 

[MrFox]

We must be more trigger happy on the "report" button.

 

[dobwal]

So basically all the time? I never go in PS4 threads PERIOD. My main problem is one little post slighting Sony can spawn multiple Sony posts from multiple Sony fans. It's almost like a mob comes out to ruin our thread. I have no problem with dealing punishment to whoever starts it. I'd just like come into my little corner I call home & not be bothered with all the BS. I'm done for reals.

Tommy McClain

Given the relative quietness over the last year, I don't particularly mind the occasional back and forth. Makes me reminisce about the good ole days (2012-2014 and 2004-2007).

War is coming my son. And if we don't keep our skills up, how else are we to gamely rebut and throw out irrational and illogical arguments over minute details that no else cares about but us.

Sterile environments won't build up or keep your immune system strong and ready. Sitting in these threads singing kumbaya won't keep your mind and skills sharp for the inevitable calamity that awaits us all...next gen consoles' reveals and launches.

 

[zed]

I don't see the point as I have numerous devices with external power packs

I'm curious what 'non portable' devices have these?
I don't follow electronics now for many years (no stereo/TV/dvd player etc for >10 years) but from memory in the old days they didnt, have these devices become so 'thin' today that they commonly need external PSU's?