That's completely irrelevant, cybamerc. We're talking about what level of graphics we'd like to see in FF12, and I'd like to see character detail with the features represented in that picture I posted - skin composed of a translucent top layer revealing life-like patchiness of redness across the surface, appearance of individual hair strands, realistic light gloss across the lip, reflection in the eyes, etc.
With FF12 being the third to fourth chapter of the series on the same hardware, I think its traditionally cinematic approach towards camerawork and screenplay would benefit from character models of the detail level Shenmue displayed in this cut-scene. Shenhua there is surrounded by a pretty expansive environment, one that would fit well with the Final Fantasy presentation, so I think it could be done.
With FF12 being the third to fourth chapter of the series on the same hardware, I think its traditionally cinematic approach towards camerawork and screenplay would benefit from character models of the detail level Shenmue displayed in this cut-scene. Shenhua there is surrounded by a pretty expansive environment, one that would fit well with the Final Fantasy presentation, so I think it could be done.
Peppermonkey
Newcomer
The dreamcast had good textures, but it lacked in polygon detail. I personally like the Dreamcast a lot, and I feel it was still worth my purchase. If the PS2 could handle textures like the Dreamcast could, I'm sure people wouldn't be dissing it so much in the technology department.
Logan Leonhart
Newcomer
I really don´t get what Sega fanboys, or anti-PS2 guys see in Shenmue. It´s graphics are merely mediocre for today´s standards.
Wow...
I wasn't even the one that mentioned Dreamcast in the first place. I merely used Shenmue, the example I found most fitting, as the model for what I wanted FF12 cinematics to resemble. Sorry that I couldn't use Enclave, or ICO, or Burnout 2, or Star Fox Adventures, or Baldur's Gate or any of those other games as my example, but none of those have the eastern artistic stylings or LOD engine focus that RPG-ish games like Shenmue and Final Fantasy share. I also wasn't aware that the Dreamcast was off limits from which to pick an example.
It so happens that Shenmue is on Dreamcast. With all the "The DC is dead" and "Dear Lord: Please make the Dreamcast die.. again" reactions, it seems some of you are troubled that one of the most fitting examples could come from a game on over four year-old, inexpensive hardware. But, geeze... get over it. Shenmue was the example for the way its graphics are presented and for their qualities, not some "look at how many more polytextures Dreamcast pushes over your system blah blah blah" flamebait.
I wasn't even the one that mentioned Dreamcast in the first place. I merely used Shenmue, the example I found most fitting, as the model for what I wanted FF12 cinematics to resemble. Sorry that I couldn't use Enclave, or ICO, or Burnout 2, or Star Fox Adventures, or Baldur's Gate or any of those other games as my example, but none of those have the eastern artistic stylings or LOD engine focus that RPG-ish games like Shenmue and Final Fantasy share. I also wasn't aware that the Dreamcast was off limits from which to pick an example.
It so happens that Shenmue is on Dreamcast. With all the "The DC is dead" and "Dear Lord: Please make the Dreamcast die.. again" reactions, it seems some of you are troubled that one of the most fitting examples could come from a game on over four year-old, inexpensive hardware. But, geeze... get over it. Shenmue was the example for the way its graphics are presented and for their qualities, not some "look at how many more polytextures Dreamcast pushes over your system blah blah blah" flamebait.
Vince said:
I didn't start the name calling ;P
And there's a big difference between a glorified tech demo with controls and something that's supposed to pass off as a story (Bouncer) and an nVidia or ATi tech demo sans controls (well sometimes with some rudimentary ones, scale, rotate, you know the drill):
Price. ;PThen there's also the fact that Bouncer attempts to pass off as a game... which IHV demos don't. ^_^;
Oh, and by the way, that Shenmue screenshot does look good, but see, there's a catch with that shot: DC's video chip is a PowerVR, so it doesn't render what isn't on the screen... in an extreme close-up like that, they can afford to go berserk with the LOD because frankly they don't have to render anything else. 
And once you're actually in the game, the graphics aren't really that great, the LOD plummets at light speed, and there's a LOT of pop-(fade-)in.
And once you're actually in the game, the graphics aren't really that great, the LOD plummets at light speed, and there's a LOT of pop-(fade-)in.
Shenmue was something of a revolutionary concept. The game was more story than gameplay, but the world that it created made it better than your average shallow game. The graphics were practically the best at the time of release, IMO.
Only Soul Calibur and PC games could beat Shenmue in 2000.
Only Soul Calibur and PC games could beat Shenmue in 2000.
G
Guest
Guest
Lazy8, why? why must you poison my FF12 with your Shenmue fetish?
As for the Shenmue opening, the most impressive thing is the close up of Shenhua face, the rest was blah! humblah! The eagle looks low polygon, the cliff is full of shimmering and the surroundings were very bland.
Bouncer graphics is more impressive than Shenmue cutscenes.
As for the Shenmue opening, the most impressive thing is the close up of Shenhua face, the rest was blah! humblah! The eagle looks low polygon, the cliff is full of shimmering and the surroundings were very bland.
Bouncer graphics is more impressive than Shenmue cutscenes.
That would be a pretty good description!
Although unlike most tech demos, "The Bouncer" actually made money... Which ones? FFX's pre-renders kick the snot out of anything from the Bouncer. Of course the real-time stuff is arguably clean on the Bouncer, however when you're dealing with a title that has art assets the scale of an FF title, you can't exactly make every one a master piece (and doing them all pre-rendered would've been prohibitively expensive).
Different games, different teams, *completely* different game engine (FF games have inherited a metric ton of legacy, whereas the Bouncer is relatively fresh, inheriting (and arguably trashing to some degree) IMO the most technically impressive 'fighting game' engine made on the PSX)...
G
Guest
Guest
Archiez, i obviously meant for the real-time stuffs, who bothers about pre-renders nowadays?
I hope FF12 uses a modified Bouncer engine. FFs and Bouncer have almost similar camera work and character interaction. Just increase the size and scale of Bouncer levels and lo-n-behold, you have FF sized towns or dungeons with beefy polygon characters.
Though the cost is another issuse....but then dont Square spent millions on every new FF title?
Make use of that tech demo Square! Tech demo should not be put to waste!
I hope FF12 uses a modified Bouncer engine. FFs and Bouncer have almost similar camera work and character interaction. Just increase the size and scale of Bouncer levels and lo-n-behold, you have FF sized towns or dungeons with beefy polygon characters.
Though the cost is another issuse....but then dont Square spent millions on every new FF title?
Make use of that tech demo Square! Tech demo should not be put to waste!
randycat99
Veteran
I would hazard to say that there should be at least one Bouncer-sort of project going on at all times. This is just so we get to see what the PS2 can do when pushed to the limit with what is known at a given time in its lifecycle. It's possible some truly amazing stuff could drop out of the mix when such things such as marketable gameplay are deliberately put on 2nd priority. Mind you, I'm not saying all games should be done like this or that game development should move in this direction, at all. It's just interesting to have a "ringer" in the mix. At the least, it could serve as inspiration or a goal post for other developers on the platform, graphicswise.
Potentially, it could lead to an alternative form of video entertainment in the same spirit of the pre-recorded movie. It could get to the point where an entire CG movie could be orchestrated in realtime. It's not a DVD, yet it's not a game. It is a movie, but not prerecorded. As a bonus, there would be no DVD compression artifacts or associated production degradations. It is realtime generated- you can't get any "purer" than that. This wouldn't be done by big Hollywood studios (they would just make a full-out movie production). This could be done by smaller CG studios that have an interesting manuscript to wield. There's no celebrity stars to pay, but maybe their would be celebrity voice talent. No sets to build- just all virtual development (the CG guys), a team of writers, and a team of artists.
Potentially, it could lead to an alternative form of video entertainment in the same spirit of the pre-recorded movie. It could get to the point where an entire CG movie could be orchestrated in realtime. It's not a DVD, yet it's not a game. It is a movie, but not prerecorded. As a bonus, there would be no DVD compression artifacts or associated production degradations. It is realtime generated- you can't get any "purer" than that. This wouldn't be done by big Hollywood studios (they would just make a full-out movie production). This could be done by smaller CG studios that have an interesting manuscript to wield. There's no celebrity stars to pay, but maybe their would be celebrity voice talent. No sets to build- just all virtual development (the CG guys), a team of writers, and a team of artists.
marconelly!
Veteran
As far as I know - no. It started as a PSX game, but they later moved on to PS2 development.
There's no catch, really. Good graphics engine will not render what is not on the screen anyways. Software will take care about that if hardware doesn't.
That's what bigger companies have R&D departments for. The output of those teams doesn't necesserily yield anything useable over some time frames, it's just there to experiment with possibilities.
And a fair share of it Does get shown to developer community eventually as well.
Making them into sell-able products is rather less likely, as time constraints are one thing that Isn't in the mind of most R&D people.
Besides, I do believe Bouncer didn't originally start as a techdemo project... but with all the personell changes they supposingly went through, it's a wonder it was even finished.But SH4 still has to transform it.
Lazy8s:
> That's completely irrelevant, cybamerc.
Nonsense. Only bitter Sega fanboys still consider old DC games like Shenmue and Soul Calibur as graphical benchmarks.
The fact is that there are games on all 3 next gen system with superior character models than the one shown in that pic. I'm talking the RE games on the GameCube, Silent Hill 3 on the PS2 and DOA3 on the Xbox. And this is in-game, during play and not just limited to some scripted cutscenes.
While that Shenmue pic definitely looks decent there are a few sacrifices that are very apparent. E.g., the details on the ear is created with a texture and the highlight in her pupil is pre-painted.
> That's completely irrelevant, cybamerc.
Nonsense. Only bitter Sega fanboys still consider old DC games like Shenmue and Soul Calibur as graphical benchmarks.
The fact is that there are games on all 3 next gen system with superior character models than the one shown in that pic. I'm talking the RE games on the GameCube, Silent Hill 3 on the PS2 and DOA3 on the Xbox. And this is in-game, during play and not just limited to some scripted cutscenes.
While that Shenmue pic definitely looks decent there are a few sacrifices that are very apparent. E.g., the details on the ear is created with a texture and the highlight in her pupil is pre-painted.
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