"Blu-ray support a last minute switch, Microsoft says..."

[SirTendeth]

This companys news releases are interesting inlight of the current format wars. You will have to read alot of them to get the big picture

http://www.optware.co.jp/english/what_050706.html
"YOKOHAMA, Japan, July 6, 2005

OPTWARE Corporation, developer of patented Collinearâ„¢ Holographic Versatile Disc storage systems, announced today that it is raising a $14 million in venture capital, and planed to close on the money in August.

OPTWARE’s fifth round of equity financing was provided by four investors, TOSHIBA Corporation, DAI-ICHI SEIMEI CAPITAL CO., LTD, Daiwa Securities SMBC Principal Investments Co. Ltd. and THE SHOKO CHUKIN BANK. The funds raised in this round will be used to accelerate OPTWARE’s market launch of its patented Collinear™ Holographic Versatile Disc (HVD) storage system.

Mr. Hiroharu Satoh, General Manager, HD DVD Promotion Division, Digital Media Network Company, TOSHIBA CORPORATION said “OPTWARE’s “Holographic Versatile Disc (HVD)†developed on its patented Collinearâ„¢ Technology has a good possibility to be compatible with the conventional DVD and next generation “HD DVDâ€, which has been developed by TOSHIBA and our partners. HVD has a glittering promise to be future optical recording media which promises our customers smooth migration from HD DVD.â€

About OPTWARE

OPTWARE ( www.optware.co.jp/english/ ), based in Yokohama, nearby Tokyo, Japan, is a privately held company founded in 1999.The company developed and patented a completely new form of storage, Collinear™ Holographic Versatile Disc storage, called HVD for short. HVD will change the way businesses with mass storage needs or large data files securely store, transfer, and manage them.HVD enables enterprises to store up to 3.9TB’s on a CD sized disc with data transfer rates up to 1Gbps.

Collinearâ„¢ Holographic storage combines many of the highly desirable features currently found only in tape or hard disk like high capacity, high transfer rates, random access, fast seek speeds, and permanent storage (at least a 50 year life); all this with very low on-going maintenance and management costs, and HVD is easy to handle and store."

 

[AlphaWolf]

Now I read from a poster on another forum that he seen both HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies being played at a show and he said that Blu-ray movies so far looked obviously better. Now take with a grain of salt because I did, but I will keep that thought in the back of my mind for future refeneces.

Well I can put a movie on a 5 1/4" floppy that will look better than those bluray ones, of course it will only be a 1/10th of a second long.

 

[BlueTsunami]

?

Well I can put a movie on a 5 1/4" floppy that will look better than those bluray ones, of course it will only be a 1/10th of a second long.

What?

 

[AlphaWolf]

What?

The storage medium has nothing to do with the quality other than the finite limit of the amount of data the medium can hold.

 

[BlueTsunami]

The storage medium has nothing to do with the quality other than the finite limit of the amount of data the medium can hold.

That reason why I don't understand what your getting at is because theres other factors in involved with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. Not unique to each one, but the way their implimented. The reason Blu-Ray may or may not look better isn't because of the amount of storage (which you obviously know already) but no one made that as a point.

 

[AlphaWolf]

That reason why I don't understand what your getting at is because theres other factors in involved with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. Not unique to each one, but the way their implimented. The reason Blu-Ray may or may not look better isn't because of the amount of storage (which you obviously know already) but no one made that as a point.

I seriously doubt that any output visual differences have anything to do with any difference between HD-DVD and blu-ray. That was the point of my comment, that the observed visual differences were basically bs.

And if we go by what microsoft has said, currently hd-dvd has more storage capacity for roms. 30gb (dual density hd-dvd) vs 25 (single density blu-ray).

 

[wco81]

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050929/sfth060.html?.v=32

 

[mckmas8808]

WOW!! Interesting points. I didn't think they would let what MS and Intel say just any ol' thing.

1. "From a PC end-user perspective, Blu-ray is a superior format. It offers 67-150% more storage capacity, higher transfer rates, slim-line notebook compatibility, broadband connectivity and a proven interactive layer with BD- Java(TM)," said Maureen Weber, General Manager of Hewlett Packard's Personal Storage Business. "The technical merits and consumer benefits of Blu-ray Disc make it the ideal solution for HP's customers."

Notice that HP said this not Sony.

2. "It is surprising that Tuesday's announcement is not aligned with that of the vast majority of the computer industry and is contrary to our consumer research."

You know I've been thinking about that for the last day now.

3. Capacity: Blu-ray Disc's capacity is 50GB. This will be available at
launch for BD-ROM, BD-R, and BD-RE

Big, Big, Big, BD-ROM anybody? I know someone here was questioning this.

4. Hybrid Disc: Blu-ray Disc was the first format to introduce a hybrid
disc that could hold both high and standard definition versions of a
movie on a single disc. The Blu-ray Hybrid Disc is the more elegant
solution as it holds both versions of the film on the same side of the
disc, which provides for easy labeling and greater ease of use for
consumers.


This is something that most people here should have really known by now.

5. Based on this feedback and a comparison of the two formats, Dell has no doubt that Blu-ray Disc best meets the needs of computer users and provides the type of open industry standards needed to drive innovation and growth of the format across all platforms -- consumer electronic, personal computers and gaming consoles."


That's what I want to hear.

 

[London Geezer]

I seriously doubt that any output visual differences have anything to do with any difference between HD-DVD and blu-ray. That was the point of my comment, that the observed visual differences were basically bs.

And if we go by what microsoft has said, currently hd-dvd has more storage capacity for roms. 30gb (dual density hd-dvd) vs 25 (single density blu-ray).

Well i still have to see a HDDVD, even single layer, on sale. We do however have BDROMs already available. With time double layer BDROMs and HDDVD will be the norm, and 30 vs 50 GB is a big difference.

The only difference in IQ between the two i could think of is if BDROM movies use MPEG2 instead of the MPG4 based ones used on HDDVD, and even then i'm not sure it will be easy to spot the difference.

The more we hear about this the more these two formats sound to me like the DD/DTS "issues". In the end both formats existed comforatbly alongside one another, one is supposedly better than the other, and sometimes it does sound like it. Like we have players that can decode both DD and DTS today, and for many years already, we will have players that will play both HDDVD and BDROM.

To the average consumer DD/DTS is just "surround sound" and he doesnt care to even go into the options to change it.
I almost expect the situation to be the same here. To the average consumer there will be "HD movies" which will be either HDDVD or BDROM, both will play fine on his player so he will be mostly oblivious to what format he's actually buying, apart from the name on the packaging. Maybe the price, if there are differences.

The only difference we might see is BDROM versions of a movie with more extras than the HDDVD version. Hardly a big selling point, and will probably prompt Sony to charge more for those, due to "more value" principles.
Another might be whole TV shows seasons like Lost on one disc at standard resolutions. BDROM would be better for the task obviously since in this case we'd need the most storage we can get.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

3. Capacity: Blu-ray Disc's capacity is 50GB. This will be available at launch for BD-ROM, BD-R, and BD-RE

"Available at launch" also reads as "currently not available." Hence the MS comments that currently BRD was only 25 GB. If dual layer had already achieved 50 GB theis press release would state as much. And that means that 50 GB discs at release is only a target, with no gaurentees that the BluRay association will pull it off, though obviously they are confident they can.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Well i still have to see a HDDVD, even single layer, on sale. We do however have BDROMs already available. With time double layer BDROMs and HDDVD will be the norm, and 30 vs 50 GB is a big difference.

BD-ROMS are available where? I know you can buy recordable media for players in Japan, but many of those players won't actually even play BD-ROMS as they were produced before the spec for BD-ROM was finalized. I have yet to see any prerecorded media for sale.

And Toshiba has triple layer HD-DVD in the lab, so there is potential for a 45 gig making that margin much smaller.

I don't doubt that blu-ray is the better storage solution, but there are still some unanswered questions. The Dell/HP press release has nothing unexpected in it.

 

[London Geezer]

BD-ROMS are available where? I know you can buy recordable media for players in Japan, but many of those players won't actually even play BD-ROMS as they were produced before the spec for BD-ROM was finalized. I have yet to see any prerecorded media for sale.

And Toshiba has triple layer HD-DVD in the lab, so there is potential for a 45 gig making that margin much smaller.
.

My points exactly. I was answering to you mentioning that double layer HDDVDs seem to be more likely to come out soon than double layer BDROMs. So far, neither of them are a reality.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well unless you think MS and Intel are straight up lying, then 2 layer HD-DVD are proven and basically ready for production, while 2 layer BR discs are still not ready to go. That was a huge basis for their decision...or so they say.

Also you kinda missed the point about Intel + MS design standard for Windows PC's. It was meant to explain why INtel is taking an active role in choosing the standard. They have to standardize the optical format that will be chosen for the next generation of Vista PC's. Part of that process would be to develop criteria for the media format, and judge the available technologies based on those criteria, which they have done.

 

[London Geezer]

Well unless you think MS and Intel are straight up lying, then 2 layer HD-DVD are proven and basically ready for production, while 2 layer BR discs are still not ready to go. That was a huge basis for their decision...or so they say.

Also you kinda missed the point about Intel + MS design standard for Windows PC's. It was meant to explain why INtel is taking an active role in choosing the standard. They have to standardize the optical format that will be chosen for the next generation of Vista PC's. Part of that process would be to develop criteria for the media format, and judge the available technologies based on those criteria, which they have done.

Like they have "standardised" DVD acceptance? Why is pretty much all software still being released on bloody CD? Almost 10 years later.

 

[mckmas8808]

"Available at launch" also reads as "currently not available." Hence the MS comments that currently BRD was only 25 GB. If dual layer had already achieved 50 GB theis press release would state as much. And that means that 50 GB discs at release is only a target, with no gaurentees that the BluRay association will pull it off, though obviously they are confident they can.

Smart analysis. I'm pretty confident that they will at least get that to work. 200GB is another story.

And Toshiba has triple layer HD-DVD in the lab, so there is potential for a 45 gig making that margin much smaller.

OK and. The Blu-ray team already has 200GB disc working in the labs so what are trying to say? And don't tell me that this means nothing.

The Dell/HP press release has nothing unexpected in it.

Why, because companies can't talk about their OWN product. So we should be more willing to think the way of MS? Maybe MS can tell us why the CELL processor is so great. Come on man you gotta think here. Blu-ray has more supporters than HD-DVD does. You think all those companies just blindly chosen blu-ray for no reason? I'm not saying that Blu-ray is way better right now, just asking you to calm down on the whole MS said this and that about blu-ray talk.

 

[avaya]

Also you kinda missed the point about Intel + MS design standard for Windows PC's. It was meant to explain why INtel is taking an active role in choosing the standard. They have to standardize the optical format that will be chosen for the next generation of Vista PC's. Part of that process would be to develop criteria for the media format, and judge the available technologies based on those criteria, which they have done.

They can only create a standard for what they control. They do not control the optical drive chosen by the OEM.

Clearly Dell and HP are not going to back off in this battle, clealrly emboldened by the belief that Microsoft and Intel can do nothing to force them to adopt HD-DVD.

This whole format war is becoming increasingly tedious. Why can't they just go back to the drawing table?

 

[London Geezer]

This whole format war is becoming increasingly tedious. Why can't they just go back to the drawing table?

To much money involved, and lots of pride too i suppose.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Why, because companies can't talk about their OWN product. So we should be more willing to think the way of MS? Maybe MS can tell us why the CELL processor is so great. Come on man you gotta think here. Blu-ray has more supporters than HD-DVD does. You think all those companies just blindly chosen blu-ray for no reason? I'm not saying that Blu-ray is way better right now, just asking you to calm down on the whole MS said this and that about blu-ray talk.

I said it has nothing unexpected in it, they merely reinforced their support of the blu-ray format. They announced nothing new, they didn't say anything we didn't already know. Volume of backers doesn't mean near as much as volume of sales, not that I necessarily agree with you that blu-ray has more backers. HD-dvd has 4 of the 5 major US movie studios on board as well the 2 largest chinese DVD player manufacturers (in addition to others).

 

[expletive]

They can only create a standard for what they control. They do not control the optical drive chosen by the OEM.

Clearly Dell and HP are not going to back off in this battle, clealrly emboldened by the belief that Microsoft and Intel can do nothing to force them to adopt HD-DVD.

Customers are not buying 'dell' or 'hp' they are buying Windows and intel, dell and HP just ahppen to be selling it. Wintel is going to use whatever leverage they have to push the success of the format. What does that mean? I dont think its clear all opportunities they have but I dont see it out of the realm of possibility that blu-ray is 'unsupported' in windows MCE. The way i see it, Dell and HP can play along or customers will find other vendors that produce the products that meet the Wintel specs and exploit all the features of future versions.

Aside from 'installing codecs' i dont see how they have any leverage over wintel.

J

 

[mckmas8808]

I said it has nothing unexpected in it, they merely reinforced their support of the blu-ray format. They announced nothing new, they didn't say anything we didn't already know.

Actually they did or at least that puts things in a better light.

Volume of backers doesn't mean near as much as volume of sales, not that I necessarily agree with you that blu-ray has more backers. HD-dvd has 4 of the 5 major US movie studios on board as well the 2 largest chinese DVD player manufacturers (in addition to others).

Who is 4 out of the 5 major US movie studios? Tell me. Oh yeah total numbers of supporters.

Over 300 Blu-ray supporters
http://www.blu-ray.com/images/ifa2005/bda_06.jpg


HD-DVD supporters

The DVD Forum develops and defines DVD formats. Its 230-strong membership brings together companies from all over the world, leaders in movies and entertainment, computing, consumer electronics and software.

Link ---> http://www.hddvdprg.com/about/index.html