"Blu-ray support a last minute switch, Microsoft says..."

[mckmas8808]

Its not really about whether or not Dell is willing to ask, its whether or not consumers are going to pay extra for BR support in their Media center edition PC when it includes HD-DVD support for free.

EDIT: Or have to use a seperate software player outside of Win MCE to play BR movies while the HD DVD player is integrated into the Win MCE interfance.

J

Look Dell has made this statement in reference to what MS and Intel has done.

"Computer manufacturers have always provided their own codecs," for optical video disc support, Mr. Dell remarked, "so we'll continue to do that."

It has always been this way. The consumers are used to paying for it from computer manufactuers.

 

[expletive]

Look Dell has made this statement in reference to what MS and Intel has done.



It has always been this way. The consumers are used to paying for it from computer manufactuers.

Are you saying that regardless of the fact that Dell is a RESELLER of 99% Intel and Microsoft products, their position in the BR camp isnt compromised whatsoever by Intel and MS backing HD-DVD?


J

 

[mckmas8808]

Are you saying that regardless of the fact that Dell is a RESELLER of 99% Intel and Microsoft products, their position in the BR camp isnt compromised whatsoever by Intel and MS backing HD-DVD?


J

Expletive they wouldn't have made the comment that they made if that wasn't so. Tell me why can't they offer the proper codecs and etc needed for Blu-ray drives? What's sooo bad when they do offer this?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Are you saying that regardless of the fact that Dell is a RESELLER of 99% Intel and Microsoft products, their position in the BR camp isnt compromised whatsoever by Intel and MS backing HD-DVD?

I wouldn't have thought so, because prior to this annoucement from MS they weren't gaurenteed to have native BRD support in Vista anyway. It's not like something has been taken away from BRD. Just something has been added to HDDVD. And if Media Player/Centre supports extra codecs (wich current versions do so why not the next version), you can load the needed codecs in.

The only obvious limit to me is the interactive layer support. Windows will presumably support HDDVDs interactive layer natively, whereas to access BluRay you'll need a separate BluRay player. I don't see that as a problem. Already I need 3 different viewers for content, and that's without DVD playback on my system. Unless all these companies agree to using one standard codec you're still going to need separate RealPlayer, QuickTime and Media Player on your Vista PC anyway. Yet another player, for BRD, is no huge disaster.

 

[trinibwoy]

Why exactly would the codec come into play here? Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are just storage formats AFAIK. The actual data is the same, no?

 

[AlphaWolf]

I wouldn't have thought so, because prior to this annoucement from MS they weren't gaurenteed to have native BRD support in Vista anyway. It's not like something has been taken away from BRD. Just something has been added to HDDVD. And if Media Player/Centre supports extra codecs (wich current versions do so why not the next version), you can load the needed codecs in.

The only obvious limit to me is the interactive layer support. Windows will presumably support HDDVDs interactive layer natively, whereas to access BluRay you'll need a separate BluRay player. I don't see that as a problem. Already I need 3 different viewers for content, and that's without DVD playback on my system. Unless all these companies agree to using one standard codec you're still going to need separate RealPlayer, QuickTime and Media Player on your Vista PC anyway. Yet another player, for BRD, is no huge disaster.

Well considering Apple is in the blu-ray camp you might see quicktime support for blu-ray.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Why exactly would the codec come into play here? Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are just storage formats AFAIK. The actual data is the same, no?

There is BD+ to worry about.

 

[London Geezer]

Well considering Apple is in the blu-ray camp you might see quicktime support for blu-ray.

So what happens now that Intel is with Apple?!

I still have to understand why Intel are saying they're supporting HDDVD and not Bluray. I mean, does it matter? CPUs don't need to "support" anything, they just work.
As for motherboards, a Bluray player will be recognised according to what connections are available to it (ATA drive or whatever else).

I just don't understand Intel's involvment in this. MS i can understand - still makes no difference whatsoever - but Intel?

 

[AlphaWolf]

So what happens now that Intel is with Apple?!

I still have to understand why Intel are saying they're supporting HDDVD and not Bluray. I mean, does it matter? CPUs don't need to "support" anything, they just work.
As for motherboards, a Bluray player will be recognised according to what connections are available to it (ATA drive or whatever else).

I just don't understand Intel's involvment in this. MS i can understand - still makes no difference whatsoever - but Intel?

Intel is still the largest supplier of graphics chips.

 

[London Geezer]

Intel is still the largest supplier of graphics chips.

...and?

Graphics chips still don't care about supporting a drive over the other. Makes no difference whatsoever to them. Don't bring up "native hardware playback support" or whatever because Bluray and HDDVD movies will use the same codecs. If they support a codec in hardware, both formats will benefit from it.

That's why i still don't understand.

 

[scooby_dooby]

So what happens now that Intel is with Apple?!

I still have to understand why Intel are saying they're supporting HDDVD and not Bluray. I mean, does it matter? CPUs don't need to "support" anything, they just work.
As for motherboards, a Bluray player will be recognised according to what connections are available to it (ATA drive or whatever else).

I just don't understand Intel's involvment in this. MS i can understand - still makes no difference whatsoever - but Intel?

Well MS and Intel compiled a list of requirements for the next gen format and BR is not meeting 7 of those requirements, hybrid discs and low costs were cited as main requirements but maybe the most imortant was this:

"First, and perhaps foremost, is the ability for a consumer to make authorized copies of a legally obtained disc, in order to store the content on a hard drive and stream it to devices around the house. Intel particularly wants this capability for its Viiv home entertainment platform, announced last month. "We think it's a great consumer win, and it's a great industry win, to be able to ensure that with good copy protection, you can have so much functionality for the user," Rivas told us. But when recently questioned about its support for these features, Ribas said, although Blu-ray had appeared supportive at one time, its current stance is now uncommitted. "

 

[expletive]

Expletive they wouldn't have made the comment that they made if that wasn't so. Tell me why can't they offer the proper codecs and etc needed for Blu-ray drives? What's sooo bad when they do offer this?

I'm not saying its bad, i just htink in terms of the Wintel platform going forward, BR will be at a significant disadvantage. Since Dell only sells Wintel, they will likely be forced into one of two scenarios:

1. Go along with MS and Intel and swtich camps to HD-DVD.
2. Constnatly be batlling uphil becuase they are pushing a standard thats not in harmony with their only (for all intents and purposes) product manufacturers.

or even

3. Battle uphill against the platform they sell only to eventually cave and switch camps

How i htink it impacts the customer:

Customers will probably have 2 choices for Win MCE

1. Get an HD-DVD drive installed and be able to play and share HD-DVDs around the house via Wn MCE

2. Buy a BR drive and have to playthose movies in a stand alone player outside of MCE, and not be able to share them on any other PC/360 in the house.

From a support and customer experience standpoint i think most will prefer the HD DVD option.

From a support standpoint, Dell will probably prefer HD DVD.

I just dont see how Dell has any leverage whatsoever here. They may have made those comments yesterday but maybe we should wait until Michael Dell has a heart to heart with Billy G.

J

 

[London Geezer]

Well MS and Intel compiled a list of requirements for the next gen format and BR is not meeting 7 of those requirements, hybrid discs and low costs were cited as main requirements but maybe the most imortant was this:

"First, and perhaps foremost, is the ability for a consumer to make authorized copies of a legally obtained disc, in order to store the content on a hard drive and stream it to devices around the house. Intel particularly wants this capability for its Viiv home entertainment platform, announced last month. "We think it's a great consumer win, and it's a great industry win, to be able to ensure that with good copy protection, you can have so much functionality for the user," Rivas told us. But when recently questioned about its support for these features, Ribas said, although Blu-ray had appeared supportive at one time, its current stance is now uncommitted. "

Well that only means that we won't be able to copy Bluray movies (yeah right...). Again, why should Intel care? And weren't MS the ones putting up stupid DRM rules to ensure we're good boys with copy protected material?
Don't know, this whole thing still sound like a lot of talk for nothing major. Bluray drives will come out for PC, they will work just fine, with additional "software and drivers" to be installed beforehand, like any other peripheral ever created. In the end even HDDVD drives will need proper drivers, since the ones built-in with Windows are hardly the ones someone should use, with any peripheral.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Well that only means that we won't be able to copy Bluray movies (yeah right...). Again, why should Intel care? And weren't MS the ones putting up stupid DRM rules to ensure we're good boys with copy protected material?
Don't know, this whole thing still sound like a lot of talk for nothing major. Bluray drives will come out for PC, they will work just fine, with additional "software and drivers" to be installed beforehand, like any other peripheral ever created. In the end even HDDVD drives will need proper drivers, since the ones built-in with Windows are hardly the ones someone should use, with any peripheral.

Isn't Intel marketing some kind of media center home right now?

<edit> ya viiv, perhaps blu-ray isn't compatible with its goals

 

[scooby_dooby]

I'm not sure why Intel cares so much, but according to ArronSpink:

"Intel and MS jointly define the PC2xxx standard for minimum capabilities for a PC. Generally these standards are what being able to put the "designed for MS windows" type stickers on the box require."

I dunno, at this point I feel like BR needs to prove why it's worthwhile for the consumer and the manufacturers to spend extra money instead of HD-DVD. And any increasedd costs for BR, even small ones like licensing costs for a bundled "BlueRay Media Player" just adds another strike against what is already an expensive format.

HD-DVD offer 30GB, it's doable and ready to go (from what I understand), according to an article I read today, using the new VC-1 codec, that's good for 8 hours of HD video.

BR needs to make a compelling case as to WHY the consumers and the manufacturers should pay more, and wait longer, for an end product that will look identical on-screen to HD-DVD.

 

[London Geezer]

I'm not sure why Intel cares so much, but according to ArronSpink:

"Intel and MS jointly define the PC2xxx standard for minimum capabilities for a PC. Generally these standards are what being able to put the "designed for MS windows" type stickers on the box require."

lol like the whole thing with error messages when installing new hardware because drivers are not "signed for Windows" or whatever, and we always click on "Continue anyway"? Again, what's the big deal...

If Intel are saying they are supporting HDDVD for their new media centre PCs (never heard before TBH) then that's another issue, another platform. It has zero relevance over the drives we'll be putting on our PCs.

Not impressed.

 

[London Geezer]

BR needs to make a compelling case as to WHY the consumers and the manufacturers should pay more, and wait longer, for an end product that will look identical on-screen to HD-DVD.

Well, will it actually be more expensive for consumers to buy a Bluray drive? And if it is, will it be a big difference?
I'm thinking, cheap drives will come out for both formats, like there will be expensive ones.
The hybrid ones will be more expensive however, and that won't help either format.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Well, will it actually be more expensive for consumers to buy a Bluray drive? And if it is, will it be a big difference?
I'm thinking, cheap drives will come out for both formats, like there will be expensive ones.
The hybrid ones will be more expensive however, and that won't help either format.

I'd be more concerned about the price of the media than the drives, most of the extra costs associated with Blu-ray are associated with manufacturing the media.

 

[RobHT]

I'd be more concerned about the price of the media than the drives, most of the extra costs associated with Blu-ray are associated with manufacturing the media.

Many factors go into determining what to charge for the media. The cost to manufacture isn't one of those factors (or at least an insignificant one). There is no reason to beleive that BluRay media would cost consumers $.01 more than HD-DVD media.

 

[mckmas8808]

BR needs to make a compelling case as to WHY the consumers and the manufacturers should pay more, and wait longer, for an end product that will look identical on-screen to HD-DVD.

Now I read from a poster on another forum that he seen both HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies being played at a show and he said that Blu-ray movies so far looked obviously better. Now take with a grain of salt because I did, but I will keep that thought in the back of my mind for future refeneces.