Beyond3D Wolves Needed to Tear This One Apart

[radar1200gs]

I never said I was against them. Get yourself some reading skills.

They should never be the only options (or even the default options IMO). Enable them or disable them as you please not at the pleasure of nVidia or Ati.

 

[OpenGL guy]

I never said I was against them. Get yourself some reading skills.

I can read just fine, thanks.

They should never be the only options (or even the default options IMO). Enable them or disable them as you please not at the pleasure of nVidia or Ati.

Ri-i-i-i-i-ght. So then 90% of the people would never benefit because they would have no clue about what these features are or even how to enable them.

That's a brilliant idea.

 

[radar1200gs]

Keep on assuming 90% of your customers are idiots if you like (you're in for a rude shock).

nVidia will thank you/ATi for it.

 

[Tim Murray]

90% of customers are idiots--have you seen how many people buy 256 meg 5200s over 5900XTs or 9600 Pros simply because it has 256 megs?

The Beyond3D Corollary to Godwin's Law: As the length of a discussion at Beyond3D increases, the probability of a thread becoming a rehash of the standard NV3x debate approaches one.

 

[digitalwanderer]

I betcha Hitler would have liked the nV3x.....

 

[radar1200gs]

Most nVidia owners don't have too much trouble with app profiles and optimization control. Of course that might well be due to the help nVidia builds into the drivers so people don't have to be confused

I've noticed more than a few Ati owners aren't that sure of how to enable instancing, so, maybe OpenGL guy is correct and ATi will become the natural habit of the graphics idiot? You certainly can't rely on ATi making it easier for users to understand their options (what few there are).

Oh, and BTW, it must have been a good 20 posts or more since NV3x got a mention...

 

[JoshMST]

Wow Radar, you certainly went on a tear with this one.

I really don't understand your aversion to ATI's gamma corrected AA. After playing hours and hours of games, I would have to say that the effect of ATI's AA is much nicer than even the new rotated pattern that NVIDIA is using for the 6x00 series. From what I know, ATI's AA doesn't change the color data of the applications textures. If it did, then in any kind of screenshot we would see some pretty whacked results when compared to the reference image, or even the image of a 6800. As it is, we only see edges that are smoother than what the 6800 produces. If you really think about it, any AA method will change the color data of a texture, but only on the edge. If the app says that the pixel should be black, but AA turns it grey to help in the transition to the white pixel, then I guess you could say that it is changing the color data of the applications textures. So how is NV's AA able to give the needed effect if it can't change the color data?

I honestly want to understand your thinking here, and perhaps we are not all on the same page? But to achieve any kind of AA effect, the edge pixels in question will have their color changed, but from what I gather ATI employs a method that better matches the colors of the adjoining pixels than what NV does (since in most cases ATI's AA certainly looks a lot smoother).

Edit: Digi, that is just mean! We all know that Hitler's favorite video card was an Intel i740 Starfighter.

 

[radar1200gs]

Josh, first things first. R300 and above use rotated grid AA for 4x and above. As well as that they also perform gamma corrected AA.

When antialiasing you choose a new color value that is the average value of your samples. Your samples come from textures or shader results.

If you apply AA to samples that have been gamma corrected, you are not working with values the app originally sent anymore and the resulting final color isn't based on colors generated by the app.

 

[martrox]

Wow Radar, you certainly went on a tear with this one.

I really don't understand.......

No one does, Josh.....

 

[DSC]

Edit: Digi, that is just mean! We all know that Hitler's favorite video card was an Intel i740 Starfighter.

Not Intel "Extreme" Graphics 2 on the 865GE chipset?

 

[madshi]

Yes, gamma corrected AA can be an IQ improvement. However it is not a standard part of the API and should be strictly optional (just like all other optimizations).

Provide all the optimizations you like. I don't mind, just make them optional and let the user or the app decide (user decides through app profiles/cp, app decides through default or app preference setting). Don't force settings on people.

There is nothing wrong with shortcuts as long as the "long cut" or original/traditiona/expected way of doing something is also available.

I think there's a misunderstanding here. ATI didn't implement gamma corrected AA to get more performance. It's not an optimization like most others. Gamma corrected AA does not give any additional speed. It is not a short cut. ATI implemented it only for one purpose: To improve IQ. And nobody on earth has complained about gamma corrected AA yet - except you.

If you apply AA to samples that have been gamma corrected, you are not working with values the app originally sent anymore and the resulting final color isn't based on colors generated by the app.

Wrong. First of all: The app doesn't say "use this pixel and that pixel and combine them by averaging the color values". The app simply sais "please do some anti aliasing". The app doesn't care whether the graphics card is doing ordered grid or rotated grid. Most of the time it doesn't even care whether the graphics card is doing multi sampling or super sampling. And it surely doesn't care about which mathematical formula is used to combine the color values.

Gamma corrected AA is just a better way to combine the edge pixels. And the final color *is* based on the original texture colors. Gamma corrected AA just uses a different mathematical formula to combine them. Asking for an option to turn that off is just plain stupid in my eyes. Nobody (except maybe you) likes to lose IQ without gaining anything in return.

 

[Dave Baumann]

If you apply AA to samples that have been gamma corrected, you are not working with values the app originally sent anymore and the resulting final color isn't based on colors generated by the app.

 

[OpenGL guy]

Keep on assuming 90% of your customers are idiots if you like (you're in for a rude shock).

nVidia will thank you/ATi for it.

Now who's putting words into someone's mouth? You don't have a clue about 3D graphics. What makes you think the average person who doesn't browse these forums has an understanding about gamma vs. ungamma corrected AA or shader optimization or Z compression or a myriad of other things? Also, why would you offer the end-user an option to make things slower? That's not smart engineering.

Does Ford give you an option to disable half your engine's cylinders just because they can?

 

[ChrisRay]

Sigh, I dont think this thread could have been derailed any worse.

 

[radar1200gs]

Putting word in your mouth??? - you didn't say this?

Ri-i-i-i-i-ght. So then 90% of the people would never benefit because they would have no clue about what these features are or even how to enable them.

That's a brilliant idea.

 

[OpenGL guy]

Putting word in your mouth??? - you didn't say this?

Ri-i-i-i-i-ght. So then 90% of the people would never benefit because they would have no clue about what these features are or even how to enable them.

That's a brilliant idea.

And where did I say "idiot" as you did in the post I replied to, hmm? By your own example, you don't have to know anything about 3D graphics to enjoy your video card.

 

[martrox]

If you apply AA to samples that have been gamma corrected, you are not working with values the app originally sent anymore and the resulting final color isn't based on colors generated by the app.

Anyone else here think Dave keeps radar around for the comedy value?

 

[Mariner]

If you apply AA to samples that have been gamma corrected, you are not working with values the app originally sent anymore and the resulting final color isn't based on colors generated by the app.

Anyone else here think Dave keeps radar around for the comedy value?

I hope not - it's cruel to mock the afflicted!

But oh so easy...

 

[John Reynolds]

I almost wrote earlier in this thread that I cannot understand why Dave hasn't banned this troll yet, except for perhaps the comedic value he brings to the board.

I'm no longer drunk, I now have alcohol poisoning.

 

[Doomtrooper]

Anyone else here think Dave keeps radar around for the comedy value?

Yes..my brain hurts reading his posts though.