I'd rather have some minor electrical problems that can be fixed pretty easily and have an engine that will run 250k+ miles and still be like new (if taken care of properly) than a japanese car that as soon as it goes out of warranty is going to eat you alive with repair bills. IMO lexus is overrated, overpriced, unreliable, and all you are buying is the image.
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ShootMyMonkey
Veteran
I haven't heard of any problem like that with Lexuses (Lexi?). I tend to hear more of that sort of thing about Chryslers. But I do think that one thing Toyota needs to work on is the coolant system for their engines, especially the four-cylinders. My biggest problem with Lexus tends to be the driving feel -- or rather, the complete lack thereof. It's like a friggin' video game. That's just a Toyota style thing happening, for the most part -- I get the same lack of feel out of a Camry.
BMW, otoh, has a hell of a lot of feel. They don't call it "the ultimate driving machine" for nothing. It's seriously for those who really want to drive.
BMW, otoh, has a hell of a lot of feel. They don't call it "the ultimate driving machine" for nothing. It's seriously for those who really want to drive.
Sage said:
You mean Korean right?
With regards to build quality and price, I don't quite know what to make of your statement
Lexus is one of the most affordable and easy to repair luxury cars around. Also has one of the better warranties. Infiniti has the best warranty of any of the manufacturers.
On the flip side the german cars are the most trouble-some and expensive to get components for and with regards to the price. There, all you are buying is the image. Your points seem to be aimed @ the japs but really you seem to be missing the mark.
Look up the problems with certain years of BMW's and Merc's and compare that with Lexus and then tell me which has the better build quality
Porches are the absolute worst for quality. A friend here has one and he's had to replace the engine and exhaust system at 36k miles.
Sazar said:On the flip side the german cars are the most trouble-some and expensive to get components for and with regards to the price. There, all you are buying is the image. Your points seem to be aimed @ the japs but really you seem to be missing the mark.
Look up the problems with certain years of BMW's and Merc's and compare that with Lexus and then tell me which has the better build quality
Maybe you can imagine that german cars have twice as much electronics onboard as the Japanese? Maybe you can also imagine that most of this stuff is completely new breed of devices which as any other new tech has some troubles in the beginning? If you can, try it
Japanese cars still have the electronics architecture that we had around 94-95. No CAN-bus, no LIN-bus, just a good old serial connection between the devices built on master/slave architecture. Hell, many Japanese cars don't even offer ESP as an option, let alone some more advanced stuff like active steering, ESP2, active air suspension, pre-safe, MOST-bus based telematics, weight sensing system, shift-by-wire, demand controlled fuel supply, 7-speed automatic with switchable characteristics, adaptive AWD and so on. They don't even have any kind of global network management.
They also have fuel system, steering and suspension we had 10 years ago.
They mostly don't offer half the luxury or cosmetic options you'll be able to order in a german car.
It would be easy for Mercedes or BMW to build failure-free cars based on mid-90's technology, but that's not the sense of being the market leader and always implementing the latest tech and new ideas/features. That's the driving force behind the development.
And to the expert above who said "Japanese electronics are the best"-blah, if you look inside Sony or yamaha TV-sets, DVD-players, CD/DVD burners you'll be surprised to see Philips, Infineon, ST, AMD and Intel tech in there, among others. You may also imagine that all big companies develop and deliver their stuff all over the world. That's why there are just as many japanese and US produced ECU's as there are german in Mercedes and BMW. That's got nothing to do with quality, see above. All the devices must go through the same rigorous QA and testing phase. Regardless of all that, Germany is the country with most advanced car electronics.
I own a TL and they are nice cars, I commute about 500 miles a week and mines been trouble free minus a minor electrical glitch that took a couple of dealer visits to sort out.
Personally I prefer the BMW I owned before the TL, but I'm not a big FWD fan so it depends on what your looking for.
Personally I prefer the BMW I owned before the TL, but I'm not a big FWD fan so it depends on what your looking for.
Yes, I will agree that BMW and Mercedes offer the most advanced eletronics inside a car. It might not be the most reliable but it sure as hell is the newest. Even VW (or should I say Audi?) is more advanced than most other car companies around when concerning electronics. This doesn't negate the reliability problem of new electronics. All new pieces of technology are prone to unforeseen problems and the only way to test such things is through time.
If you are looking for expensive repair bills and an engine that may last 100k miles with proper maintenance then get a Mercedes.
Reliability in a car is something that is highly laughable. Everyone should do the proper maintenance in their car and follow the manufacturer's guidelines on when to change the oil, get a tuneup, change brakes and what not. That will leave the car running in the best optimal condition. Toyotas and Hondas are known to be able to run without too much maintenance or repairs. Those cars just keep going and someitmes there is no stopping them. For Toyota at least......watch Top Gear, I think that was the show.
Mitsubishi is crap for reliability and I personally rate them lower than Ford, Mercedes, or even Pininfarina.
Russ, what kind of Porsche was it? My Boxster S has been going strong for the last 80k miles with only minor repairs here and there. Engine has been good for all that time. I did replace the exhaust after 14k miles but that was more for power purposes.
If you want the latest engine technology then the US, Japan, Germany, and Italy offer new technology all the time. It is up to debate what is the newest. You have GM with their Corvette that still use ancient OHV technology but with the updates and new R&D done to it make the engine pretty darn robust. I get 30 MPG on the highway in a V8, that is shocking.
I think what we should all look for in the future of cars is hybrid technology. In two or three years we should see who has the better technology to power these cars....and yes that all boils down to electronics.
If you are looking for expensive repair bills and an engine that may last 100k miles with proper maintenance then get a Mercedes.
Reliability in a car is something that is highly laughable. Everyone should do the proper maintenance in their car and follow the manufacturer's guidelines on when to change the oil, get a tuneup, change brakes and what not. That will leave the car running in the best optimal condition. Toyotas and Hondas are known to be able to run without too much maintenance or repairs. Those cars just keep going and someitmes there is no stopping them. For Toyota at least......watch Top Gear, I think that was the show.
Mitsubishi is crap for reliability and I personally rate them lower than Ford, Mercedes, or even Pininfarina.
Russ, what kind of Porsche was it? My Boxster S has been going strong for the last 80k miles with only minor repairs here and there. Engine has been good for all that time. I did replace the exhaust after 14k miles but that was more for power purposes.
If you want the latest engine technology then the US, Japan, Germany, and Italy offer new technology all the time. It is up to debate what is the newest. You have GM with their Corvette that still use ancient OHV technology but with the updates and new R&D done to it make the engine pretty darn robust. I get 30 MPG on the highway in a V8, that is shocking.
I think what we should all look for in the future of cars is hybrid technology. In two or three years we should see who has the better technology to power these cars....and yes that all boils down to electronics.
A '99 Boxter. The engine failure was something to do with the cylinder sheath breaking off--a known problem.Sonic said:
The exhaust was cracks developing on the main manifolds.
Other issues he's had:
-rear window cracked right down the middle
-spring in steering wheel horn broke, so the horn would honk every bump he went over (I got a kick out of that one)
He certainly got his money's worth on the extended warranty he purchased.
By the way you are crazy, my parents got a 4runner in 90' and it has 290000 miles on it. The only problem it had was a head gasket went out at 125,000 miles and toyota fixed it for free b/c there had been a decent number go out. Other than that they only replaced the balljoints once, and brakes and so forth.
My first car was a 78 corolla and it drove for over 20 years with no major work at all. (i.e. only brakes, clutch once, windshield wipers and so forth).
BTW the porsche is for people with money to fix it And it is known for being terrible.
Edit: Sage if you meant korean you are right btw, but you said japanese and since their warranties used to suck anyway.
My first car was a 78 corolla and it drove for over 20 years with no major work at all. (i.e. only brakes, clutch once, windshield wipers and so forth).
BTW the porsche is for people with money to fix it
And it is known for being terrible.Edit: Sage if you meant korean you are right btw, but you said japanese and since their warranties used to suck anyway.
_xxx_ said:
Advanced electronics without reliability means nothing.
That's why Japan is the electronics capitol of the world. The brains inside those electronics devices you describe above are mostly Japanese. We don't care about the dumb components. Ask any automotive industry expert and they'll tell you the Germans are behind in electronics reliability. The Japanese can EASILY make more advanced automotive electronics, but then they'd have to sell their cars at a higher price since they also have to make it reliablle unlike the Germans. BMW's iDrive flopped big time.
Sazar said:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAaaaaa. okay thats not really funny becayse its so rediculous. Lexus is more expensive than Mercedes and BMW by far. I've known a lot of people who ended up having to sell their Lexus because they couldnt afford the repair bills. The things were constantly needing to be repaired and it was ludicrously expensive
i think people are paying more for the image of lexus than they are for mercedes. they buy the lexus because there are so many people driving lexus that it's become the "in" thing to do.
digitalwanderer
Legend
RussSchultz said:
Sage, I see no reason why you need to take things on such a personal level. You know that your Mercedes engine will not last one million miles even with the proper maintenance. It will break and you would have to replace or rebuild it.
I'm glad you like your car and think it's the best thing ever. It's good to see you have pride in your car, it really is. That doesn't give you much reason to think other cars are inferior in all ways. In reliability most car companies have Mercedes beat. This can be argued to an extent but one only has to look at statistics.
Sometime's it is all a matter of luck. My Boxster S has never caused major problems for me. But for Russ's friend it has caused so many problems that it could be seen as unbearable. I'd say I'm pretty damn lucky with the car.
I'm glad you like your car and think it's the best thing ever. It's good to see you have pride in your car, it really is. That doesn't give you much reason to think other cars are inferior in all ways. In reliability most car companies have Mercedes beat. This can be argued to an extent but one only has to look at statistics.
Sometime's it is all a matter of luck. My Boxster S has never caused major problems for me. But for Russ's friend it has caused so many problems that it could be seen as unbearable. I'd say I'm pretty damn lucky with the car.
Sonic said:
We just bought back a car from a guy who made 4,000,000 km with it. An old /8 model. It resides in the new Mercedes museum now. I know many Mercedes which made 1,000,000 without any major problems.
As for Porsche, I already mentioned it in this thread: Porsche are the highest quality series cars in the world. Nothing out there that even comes near. That friend of Russ was just out of luck.
Sage said:
You sound confused or are not in touch with reality.
_xxx_ said:
I hope you don't work for BMW, because their electrical systems are very unreliable.
Like Sonic has mentioned, the truth can be found in the statistics. Now if you show me some statistics that show BMW are more reliable than Lexus please post them.
_xxx_ said:
if you want i can dig up some horrorr stories by Merc users from here, one guy even burnt his new E-class in front of distributors offices cause he spent more time fixing troubles then driving the car....
some say it was batch made for "eastern markets".... but there was alot of coverage in media about troubles with Mercedes cars.....
There was a funny quote in the thing about the mercedes with the most mileage.
And obviously all that is pointless since you can basically drive a car (any one) forever if you fix it when it breaks, you can rebuild the engine and transmission forever, the interior will just look like crap, of course you can reupholster it.
http://savvytraveler.publicradio.org/show/features/2002/20020322/interview2.shtml
A volvo with 2 million miles, like I said cars can last pretty much forever if you want to drive an old crappy car around
And obviously all that is pointless since you can basically drive a car (any one) forever if you fix it when it breaks, you can rebuild the engine and transmission forever, the interior will just look like crap, of course you can reupholster it.
http://savvytraveler.publicradio.org/show/features/2002/20020322/interview2.shtml
A volvo with 2 million miles, like I said cars can last pretty much forever if you want to drive an old crappy car around