Are Mega-PSUs truly necessary? [From GT200 Thread]

[Npl]

i think there is something to be said for insanity
- clearly it works for some of us an i am "alternate" in almost everything
- it is MY opinion and i can support it as well as you can

Sure, chances are good that you can figure up subjective arguments for just about anything.

i DID do a major upgrade last year and i spent about $150 after [big] MiR for my 850w OCZ; not expensive compared to the rest of my rig. Even my UPS is bang for buck; i got my 850w/1500va dual battery pack UPS from Fry's for $120 shipped; its only deficiency is it's sine wave is 'stepped' and the square wave is approximated. My OCZ is fine realistically to 750w without ripple and it is *perfect* for 2900xt Crossfire. A Single 2900xt WILL out draw even a GTX Ultra at maximum.

i have 2 baby dragons inside my case and that is WHY i got a 850w PS

Wait, why dint you just buy a 850W PSU in your last system, had no insurance last time? You did buy a new PSU just like I did when I built my System..

My next system will be "set up for" Quad-Ultra SLi or for 4870x4 [2x4870x2]

i just want to have an "overkill" PS .. what is it really costing me?

My GPUs will be well over $1000; my CPU will be $500 and you want me to be a cheapass and "save $100" on what i consider a marginal PS?

So, you indeed call it an "overkill" PSU yourself - then other than personal preference, what rational reason do you have.. you know.. the "Are Mega-PSUs truly necessary?" Part.

i think you might want a padded room just for your own frustration if you do for yourself what you are suggesting for me! And please see Dr Phil; he can save you real money in the long run

Err..

EDIT: As to "protection", some jerk sent me an 8800GTX with a defective peltier that nearly took out my PS and the rest of my system the instant i turned it on; if my PS was NOT top notch, i would have a melted MB and some other ruined components

I never said a cheap PSU, I said one thats fitting for the System. If you have 500W "spare" on your PSU chances are higher that your component will smolder and burn before it decides to cut off Power, compared to a PSU that has 100W spare.

 

[ShaidarHaran]

a "matched" PS is cool - that is what Dell does .. and it is great until you upgrade to something that has a higher power draw =P

Not true.

Here were my Dell Dimension 3000's specs as new in Nov. '04:
P4 3.0 (Prescott 1M - 90nm)
512MB DDR2 (2x256 @ 400)
DVD-ROM
CD-RW
160GB SATA HD
Radeon X300 SE PCI-e 128MB

that's on a "305W" factory-rated PSU

Here were the specs last time I was actually using the thing earlier this year before I built my current E8400/8800GT rig:
P4 3.4 (Prescott 1M -90nm)
3GB DDR2 (2x512 @ 533 + 2x1GB @ 533)
DVD-ROM
DVD-RW
2x 250GB SATA HD
Radeon X1650 XT 256MB w/aftermarket HSF
Soundblaster Live

By my count I more than doubled power consumption over factory specs. Still think you can't upgrade a Dell?

For the record Dell severely under-rates their PSUs. That "305W" PSU has dual +12V rails rated @ 18A each. My current 550W Corsair VX that ran me about $100 is just a single 41A rail. Definitely an upgrade, but not huge.

 

[ShaidarHaran]

one more thing:

apoppin, no one here is saying people should buy cheap PSUs. All we're saying is that the average enthusiast doesn't need more than a QUALITY 500-750W unit, depending on system hardware configuration.

 

[suryad]

That is SO silly

a 1,000 w PS does not use more power than a 500w PS .. if that is all your PC draws
- i call the "extra" - "insurance"

some of you like to like dangerously; i prefer to risk my life when i am in that mood, not my PC =P

I may be slow but I dont understand that comment...so go slow for me will ya?

 

[I.S.T.]

one more thing:

apoppin, no one here is saying people should buy cheap PSUs. All we're saying is that the average enthusiast doesn't need more than a QUALITY 500-750W unit, depending on system hardware configuration.

Yes. a high quality 500 watt PSU(such as this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151029) will serve most people just fine. Personally, I have an earthwatts 380, but I don't draw more than 150-200 watts at maximum load.

 

[apoppin]

Yes. a high quality 500 watt PSU(such as this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151029) will serve most people just fine. Personally, I have an earthwatts 380, but I don't draw more than 150-200 watts at maximum load.

Ok, then we can declare Peace and i am 100% agreed with you

one more thing:

apoppin, no one here is saying people should buy cheap PSUs. All we're saying is that the average enthusiast doesn't need more than a QUALITY 500-750W unit, depending on system hardware configuration.

one more thing:

i AGREE with you! note your keywords, "average" and QUALITY. And you say "750w"; my "850" does not look so silly for 2900xt Crossfire; i KNOW 700w is NOT sufficient

You just need to realize that i am a very small and vocal [=P] member of a minority of nearly insane Tekkies. How many of us would willingly buy a PAIR of GPUs that double as room heater and hair-blow driver?
These people *need* over 1,000w

i also believe that Jen loves us
- and we too can all be saved

=D .. sorry; please think for yourselves everyone and accept the unusual PoV if possible as not only alternate but actually workable

Wait, why dint you just buy a 850W PSU in your last system

i thought ahead and i planned for the future as i saw i would buy my 2nd 2900 - eventually - for CrossFire. I planned ahead for over 9 months or else a 500w would have been overkill for my old - or even [then] new build e4300/x1950p-512mb system - but it would have barely handled my next GPU upgrade, a single XT, nevermind Xfire and i would have had to upgrade again
[i didn't have to upgrade as i planned ahead and my OCZ 850w was cheap 15 months ago!]

 

[kuraegomon]

It really doesn't matter too much what the PSU is rated at as long as it is built decently. There are very very few system configurations out there that need a power supply rated at greater than 500 watts. And NONE that need more than about 650 Watts.

The 800+ watt power supplies for PCs are just a joke.

Aaron spink
speaking for myself inc.

Umm, no. My current rig specs out thusly:

Asus Striker Extreme, 4 GB Corsair 6400C4, 2 x 8800 GTX (OC), AMCC 9650SE-8LPML RAID, 4x WD Raptor (RAID 0), 2x Seagate 7200.10 (RAID 1), Q6600 (OC to 3.2 GHz).

Under heavy gaming load (cough, Crysis, cough), I pull 600+ Watts at the wall. As others have mentioned, PSU's degrade heavily if run near full capacity. I wouldn't run a PSU over about 70% of it's rated wattage for any length of time.

That's why I have a Thermaltake Toughpower 1200, though any quality 1 kW+ supply would do.

 

[ShaidarHaran]

Umm, no. My current rig specs out thusly:

Asus Striker Extreme, 4 GB Corsair 6400C4, 2 x 8800 GTX (OC), AMCC 9650SE-8LPML RAID, 4x WD Raptor (RAID 0), 2x Seagate 7200.10 (RAID 1), Q6600 (OC to 3.2 GHz).

Under heavy gaming load (cough, Crysis, cough), I pull 600+ Watts at the wall. As others have mentioned, PSU's degrade heavily if run near full capacity. I wouldn't run a PSU over about 70% of it's rated wattage for any length of time.

That's why I have a Thermaltake Toughpower 1200, though any quality 1 kW+ supply would do.

PSUs are rated by their DC output capability, not by how much power they draw from the wall. If you're going to measure that way (AC) you have to account for the efficiency of the PSU in question given the internal temperature of the PSU's components as well as the load placed on the unit. 600W @ the wall may "only" be 450W DC.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Here's something else to keep in mind about efficiency when purchasing a supply:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_power_supply#Energy_efficiency

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Unless you use multiple very beefy gpu's there is no need for a 1000watt psu, hell, you wont even need a 500watt one. On a normal consumer pc even a quality 380watt psu will be overkill. You could easily run a quadcore system with a good gpu and a few hdd's on a good 480watt psu and probably even a lower power one. And know because I got a q6600 with 4 hdd's running without any problems on a tagan 480watt that I have for a couple of years now. Only I dont have a beefy gpu.

 

[aaronspink]

Umm, no. My current rig specs out thusly:

Asus Striker Extreme, 4 GB Corsair 6400C4, 2 x 8800 GTX (OC), AMCC 9650SE-8LPML RAID, 4x WD Raptor (RAID 0), 2x Seagate 7200.10 (RAID 1), Q6600 (OC to 3.2 GHz).

Under heavy gaming load (cough, Crysis, cough), I pull 600+ Watts at the wall. As others have mentioned, PSU's degrade heavily if run near full capacity. I wouldn't run a PSU over about 70% of it's rated wattage for any length of time.

That's why I have a Thermaltake Toughpower 1200, though any quality 1 kW+ supply would do.

Um, that computer will run just fine with pretty much ANY quality 550-600 watt power supply. As it is, you are wasting a TON of power due to generally running your power supply at 15-25% of rated load.

 

[apoppin]

Um, that computer will run just fine with pretty much ANY quality 550-600 watt power supply. As it is, you are wasting a TON of power due to generally running your power supply at 15-25% of rated load.

As long as you realize that some of us are satisfied to "waste" power and it is OUR power to "waste", then i have no further problem with ANY elitist PoV - even mine although mine is admittedly extreme for "insurance" [and future upgrades]

Fortunately, although i may be insane, i am a very "balanced" nut and i make sure i compensate elsewhere for my insane PC Power Supplies and ridiculously Power-Hungry Multi GPUs and Multi-core CPUs i so love - by reducing my carbon footprint more than ANY SUV driver can ever hope to do

so .. "judge ye not, lest ye also be judged"
--i believe in the metaphysical .. now and there is method in my madness

=P

 

[woundingchaney]

I think the undeniable answer is that a mega-psu is necessary depending on the components of one's rig.

I am running
Q6600 @ 3.2
3- 8800gtx factory oc
4- 1 gig DDR2 800 oc
2- WD hdd
7- 120 led case fans
evga 780i mobo
2- dvd burner
cigarette lighter
fan monitor w/ osd


The thought of running this rig on a 700w or 800w psu is ridiculous. The problem with even estimating what the "average enthusiast" needs for a power supply is considering what components they have within their setup and what they use their setup for. System power draw is also an area that I doubt the "average enthusiast" has knowledge about.


Ultimately for ma and pa or the general consumer out there I dont by any means believe that they need an uber psu, but many of us with more hardware heavy rigs are pushing the limits of our current uber psus.

 

[kuraegomon]

PSUs are rated by their DC output capability, not by how much power they draw from the wall. If you're going to measure that way (AC) you have to account for the efficiency of the PSU in question given the internal temperature of the PSU's components as well as the load placed on the unit. 600W @ the wall may "only" be 450W DC.

True - I wasn't terribly specific there. I pull about 670 at the wall at absolute peak, and the Toughpower 1200 runs at about 85% in the 45-55% load range, at 110 V input (see JonnyGuru/H-Enthusiast reviews, among others), so that gives - 570 W. Note that I'm extrapolating a bit - JG used 110 V, H-E tested at 100 and 120 V. My old Seasonic S12 600 was completely overmatched - duh. Oh well, now I know what power-starvation symptoms look like.

So yes, I could've bought a quality 800 PS - except that if I'd gone tri-SLI (perf. delta over 2 cards ended up never being good enough to justify it), I'd have been maxing out the PSU again. Plus, a look at what the GT200 is shaping up to be indicates that dual or tri-SLI (or, heavens forfend, 2x9900 GX2) is going to be even harder on the juice. Oy vey - 2560x1600 gaming has driven me to previously unthought of extremes. But once you've done it - you can't go back ... Mwuah-hahahaha!

Very much looking forward to an Nvidia HybridPower board for Intel - that and the 55 nm editions of GT200 (Q1/Q2 09?) should cut back a bit on the ginormous thirst.

 

[kuraegomon]

Um, that computer will run just fine with pretty much ANY quality 550-600 watt power supply. As it is, you are wasting a TON of power due to generally running your power supply at 15-25% of rated load.

See my second post - and I'm never running at 25% of rated load. My idle is (500 W x 0.85 = 425 W) 35 % of load - and the efficiency of the TP1200 at that load is ... drumroll ... 84%. Tell me again how inefficient that is please? Pretty much no consumer PS released prior to 2005 or so would hit that number at peak. I've done my homework - either you don't always do yours, or you're being disingenuous.

 

[kuraegomon]

Here's something else to keep in mind about efficiency when purchasing a supply:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_power_supply#Energy_efficiency

That article is a little dated. Active power factor correction means that many PS's today show significantly better efficiency performance than that over a much broader range of loads. That's what the 80+ certification is for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_PLUS

I'd never buy a PS that didn't have multiple reviews showing that it actually met at _least_ the base 80-plus criteria ... i.e. 80% efficiency at 20% of load. And I'd be willing to pony up for a PS comparable to my current one that met 80+ Gold criteria.

 

[kuraegomon]

Um, that computer will run just fine with pretty much ANY quality 550-600 watt power supply. As it is, you are wasting a TON of power due to generally running your power supply at 15-25% of rated load.

And, ohbytheway, did you notice my reply about my Seasonic S12 600? Which by anyone's estimation was a quality 600 W power supply?

To reiterate what a ton-load of people have been telling you ... for 99%+ of the PC running population, your advice is fine - but legitimate configurations do exist that need more, and the penalty for slight-to-moderate overkill is pretty much nil with top-quality PS's.

So you see? I too can carpet-bomb a thread Please feel free to take the last word on this ... I'm quite sure you won't be able to resist.

 

[Berek]

There is one important positive note to consider when purchasing a PSU significantly above the maximum draw your computer actually uses... stability.

For example, the GameXStream power supplies, while excellent in build quality and design, tend to have a ripple in their power output which may affect stability at high loads. This ripple noise is evident in every single PSU, but real good ones will control this to a minimum (especially keeping it within specs).

To help alleviate this ripple concern, as well as any load-balance concerns, purchasing a PSU that is rating between 80-100% higher than your maximum draw will ensure the PSU can operate at peak efficiency, as the typical efficiency of a PSU usually lies somewhere in the 40-60% range.

It would indeed be a waste if you purchased a 1k+ PSU and only used 200 watts, while dangerous to use if your usage peaks at 900+ watts.

 

[Sxotty]

That really depends on the PSU. Most modern PSUs using quality components have 10+ year lifetimes at 90+% of rated power. Most high quality modern PSUs will deliver 100% of rated power over a 10 year lifetime.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

I have never had a quality power supply fail on me yet. Only the cheapo crappy ones. I am not saying they won't ever, but I have to agree that they have lasted quite well when they were from decent manufacturers.

 

[digitalwanderer]

You never save money going cheap on your PSU, ever.