Anyone else afraid the market fragmentation with 3D support will lead to its demise

[NeoTechni]

Not really

Yes, really.

ANY extra step = extra lag
That's a basic principle of electronics.
There may be imperceptible lag, but there is still lag.

Whatever has hdmi1.4 will work together(i.e. all the new stuff that is coming later this year).

That doesnt say there isnt fragmentation.

Glasses are Irrelevant, only source material can cause fragmentation

No, the hardware can as well.
All hardware involved.

Oh, and there is still fragmentation in source material.
360 has 3d that works on some tvs not others
And you've admitted games and video on PS3 will use different protocols

 

[manux]

Yes, really.

ANY extra step = extra lag
That's a basic principle of electronics.
There may be imperceptible lag, but there is still lag.

Proper simple scaling doesn't add lag in any measurable way due to the way processing in tv works. Scaling can be done in same pass as all the other stuff that needs to be done anyway(i.e. converting format coming from hdmi to tv internal framebuffer format and copying said data from hdmi transceiver buffer to tv framebuffer ).

You probably cannot play any online games as they add tens(if not hundreds) of milliseconds of lag whereas simple scaling probably doesn't add even 1ms(as it's done with the speed it takes to read from hdmi and write to framebuffer as I have explained in earlier posts).

Btw. Did you know that most ps3/xbox360 games use(forced) scaling and they don't render in 720p or 1080p resolution internally, oh so terrible ;D Lag due to scaling just isn't something user needs to be worried about, what user needs to be worried about is that tv has proper low lag gaming mode (which all tv's don't have or it's implemented poorly).

No, the hardware can as well.
All hardware involved.

Oh, and there is still fragmentation in source material.
360 has 3d that works on some tvs not others
And you've admitted games and video on PS3 will use different protocols

As far as I know ps3 will use subset of hdmi1.4 formats that can be sent over high speed hdmi1.3 link.

My earlier point was that ps3(and perhaps xbox360) and old pc solutions should be the only hacked meaningful hardware. If any of those hardwares wants to get any kind of adoption outside small circle of freaks they need to be compatible with some of the hdmi1.4 formats new tv's support. All reasonable future hardware should be compatible with hdmi1.4 and hence interoperable(i.e. all the new blu-ray players, next gen consoles, pc's and so on). All current stuff is very early adopter stuff not meant for mass market. The 3d for masses doesn't start this year. Mass adoption is couple of years ahead of us once there is better pricing for cheaper tv's and more compelling 3d content.

 

[NeoTechni]

Btw. Did you know that most ps3/xbox360 games use(forced) scaling and they don't render in 720p or 1080p resolution internally, oh so terrible ;D

I know some games do that. But to claim all or most games do that would be false.
Most games do indeed do 720p. I hate when they scale to 720p, just give me a frame and a raw buffer. I'd be much happier.

1080p on the other hand, I agree with you on.

And people have noticed the lag when games do that.

 

[manux]

I know some games do that. But to claim all or most games do that would be false.
Most games do indeed do 720p. I hate when they scale to 720p, just give me a frame and a raw buffer. I'd be much happier.

1080p on the other hand, I agree with you on.

And people have noticed the lag when games do that.

Any concrete measurements on that lag or links/references, it's easy to talk anything in internet but only measurements bring facts to table. I haven't seen any verified measurements/sources confirming ps3/xbox360 internal scaling brings additional lag... What I might believe is that some tv's have different lag on 720p mode and 1080p mode and that can be mistakenly confused for lag due to scaling on console.

There also are graphics modes where scaling is laughably easy, one such format would be to render in 960*1080 resolution. Basicly tv only needs to double pixels horizontally and it has 1920*1080(1080p) framebuffer. rendering cost for 960*1080 is pretty much same as for 720p. Do you really believe changing pixels a,b,c to aa,bb,cc really brings lag into table while writing the data from hdmi to framebuffer.

If devs see lag problem on 720p using 960*1080 resolution would be an easy fix. But I doubt very much there is any lag problem in properly implemented displays. At least not more so than in 2d televisions already . Some tv's just suck when it comes to gaming.

 

[manux]

I know some games do that. But to claim all or most games do that would be false

I seem to be wrong there, agreed. But the point I tried to make was that there are some very high quality games praised for playability and non existant lag and they do scaling. For example modern warfare2 and mgs4 render in sub 720p resolution and do scaling. Also gran turismo 5 prologue scales in 1080p mode and there isn't any discussions about lag in gt5 prologue in 720p vs. 1080p mode. Also I haven't really seen any general talk in this boards where it would be said by any developer or otherwise credible source that stick to 720p it's lower lag than 1080p.

See list of rendering resolutions here:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1113342&postcount=2

 

[NeoTechni]

Any concrete measurements on that lag or links/references, it's easy to talk anything in internet but only measurements bring facts to table

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?p=13018667

Any scaling introduces input lag.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=753069

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5416631&postcount=633

http://knol.google.com/k/how-to-calibrate-lag-in-guitar-hero#

 

[manux]

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?p=13018667



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=753069

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5416631&postcount=633

http://knol.google.com/k/how-to-calibrate-lag-in-guitar-hero#

First link just contains a oneliner without any proof. Saying same thing tens times doesn't make it true. I have already explained to you why on technical terms properly implemented scaling does Not introduce measurable lag.

At least the second and third links are not really valid for ps3 games. They talk about broken deinterlacing used for ps1/ps2 game emulation. Lag doing deinterlace for ps1/ps2 games has nothing to do with ps3 games. PS3 games would not be using said broken deinterlacing. Also the article is old, poor deinterlace might have been fixed by now(if somebody really cares about ps1/ps2 games).

Fourth link is general stuff related to displays and lag they have, it has nothing to do with scaling itself. Lag is part of tv's no matter if the tv does or does not do scaling. if you had understood what I explained earlier about processing done inside tv you would realise there is lag but it's not due to scaling. In all actuality tv's do mandatory processing of data coming from hdmi before said stuff lands framebuffer. TV's can get scaling for "free"(i.e. without adding lag) due to that processing(which cannot really be avoided).

 

[NeoTechni]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/12/darkworks-shows-off-trioviz-for-games-2d-to-3d-sdk-we-get-a-goo/

More fragmentation

 

[assen]

Afraid? No, I *hope*

 

[Danalys]

Looks like colour filter tech but with different colours. They could give us side by side views of this stuff to see for ourselves somewhat what it's like.