Anyone else afraid the market fragmentation with 3D support will lead to its demise

[NeoTechni]

http://www.hdtvarcade.com/hdtvforum/index.php?showtopic=15933&view=findpost&p=175989

We just got our Mitsubishi 3D display setup at my work. It's a 70" DLP, 3D ready display. It's very cool looking, the 3D is done fairly well on all the demo stuff they have running. Here's the kicker though, according to the Mitsubishi rep who set it all up, their 3D glasses and displays are different from every other companies' displays. Which means that if you buy a Mitsubishi, you'll have to use their glasses or glasses made for their TVs. You couldn't own a Samsung 3D TV and a Mitsubishi and interchange the glasses. (This is all according to our Mitsubishi rep, so if something is inaccurate, the claims aren't coming from me. LOL!). Kind of stupid if you ask me. Why didn't the industry agree on a standard? I know each company probably wants to sell their own glasses and accessories and charge people a shit-ton of money so they don't want things to be interchangeable. But, talk about trying to turn people away right off the bat by making things so complicated! This whole era of 3D TV crap is going to be soooooo confusing to 95% of the population. That said, it was cool, but not something I care about having in my home.

Then there is the whole thing about how even though there are cheap 120 hz capable TVs out there that can handle the data rate via HDMI 1.3, they decided to change the signal in HDMI 1.4 so any existing 3d capable TV can't handle the format

This is what scares me. 3D CANT take off if they want to make it so anti-consumer. They should all use existing standards like the nVidia 3d shutter glasses kit as well as HDMI 1.3 which obviously can handle it. I want to buy a 3DTV the day PS3 gets the patch to support it, but the way it's being done I have to wait to see which 3D capable TVs are even supported

 

[obonicus]

Aren't there 3d standards, though, or is Mitsubishi really making up its own? I even thought the standard had defined RealD or something as a standard, but patsu probably knows better.

 

[NeoTechni]

There's no standard glasses interface, there's no standard that defines what TVs support what, given that the TVs claiming to be 3D capable now, won't support the new format.

It's bad enough we can't use them on existing TVs, but anyone who bought a 120 hz TV for the sole purpose of 3D can't use it for that.

 

[manux]

The whole point is to standardize the source material(i.e. movies, games) while allowing freedom in implementation of displays using variety of technologies. There isn't significant fragmentation in source material and all should be even better once there is no more new hdmi1.3 devices. You can safely buy 3d movies and trust that when you upgrade your display you don't need to go and buy the movie again(same for games if they are implemented in any sensible way)

I doubt there is significant amount of people who are going to jump to 3d bandwagon during 2010, it's mainly for early adopters at this phase. Similarly I'm not aware of any sensibly priced large 3d displays or projectors. Only sensible stuff is relatively small pc monitors or low resolution projectors. Projectors have plenty of road to walk before they can show blu-ray 3d movies in full resolution while also having sensible price(i.e. projector costing less than 3000$).

 

[manux]

There's no standard glasses interface, there's no standard that defines what TVs support what, given that the TVs claiming to be 3D capable now, won't support the new format.

It's bad enough we can't use them on existing TVs, but anyone who bought a 120 hz TV for the sole purpose of 3D can't use it for that.

I would bet it's physically impossible to show decent quality 3d on most of those old tv's. They don't have the logic needed to separate and scale 2 images from one framebuffer nor do they have capabilty to take in 120Hz signal where player would serve separate image for both eyes. There is pretty much nothing any standard can do for most of those old tv's(with reaonable quality, you could always do 30Hz per eye and boy would it suck)...

 

[manux]

In short I don't see fragmentation as a problem for mass adoption. This should be less bumpy ride than blu-ray vs. hd-dvd vs. dvd. At least this time there also is significant market penetration on "standalone" players via ps3 on day 1. Also all the major industry players are behind same standard.

As I explained in posts above it is not bad thing that display manufacturers use different implementations as long as they are compatible with same source material(i.e. hdmi1.4 and above +ps3 hack to gain significant base for 3d players). On pc side similar hack to what ps3 does should be achievable or just an upgrade to hdmi1.4 display device.

On movies it's great that same disc contains both 2d and 3d movie so you can buy the 3d version and watch it in 2d with your old blu-ray player. Once you have 3d player and display you can watch the same movie again on 3d. Separate physical media for 2d/3d movie would have caused fragmentation which doesn't occur now.

 

[manux]

[Then there is the whole thing about how even though there are cheap 120 hz capable TVs out there that can handle the data rate via HDMI 1.3, they decided to change the signal in HDMI 1.4 so any existing 3d capable TV can't handle the format

Which tv's would those be? I'm not aware of any tv that takes in 120Hz from hdmi. They take in up to 60Hz and internally handle showing content on higher refresh rate. There isn't a way to feed these tv's 120Hz 3d signal(60Hz both eyes).

 

[ShadowRunner]

Buy a HDMI 1.4 3DTV and you will be guaranteed it will work. Now the standard is set its pretty much a non issue. As for certain glasses only working with certain TVs i dont see the problem, you buy the relevent peripherals for your device the same as you do for everything else.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Which tv's would those be? I'm not aware of any tv that takes in 120Hz from hdmi. They take in up to 60Hz and internally handle showing content on higher refresh rate. There isn't a way to feed these tv's 120Hz 3d signal(60Hz both eyes).

You can buy devices now, for example certain 3D projectors from Optoma, that accept a 120hz signals and have built in support for DLP-Link shutter glasses. Problem is that they only support a 120hz frame sequential scource signal which is not what most of the new devices will be using (probably will use frame packing/side by side/top and bottom). Thier use is pretty much relagated to PCs. The standard is now in place though so this is no longer an issue, buy a 3DTV thats HDMI 1.4 and your good to go.

 

[manux]

You can buy devices now, for example certain 3D projectors from Optoma, that accept a 120hz signals and have built in support for DLP-Link shutter glasses. Problem is that they only support a 120hz frame sequential scource signal which is not what most of the new devices will be using (probably will use frame packing/side by side/top and bottom). Thier use is pretty much relagated to PCs. The standard is now in place though so this is no longer an issue, buy a 3DTV thats HDMI 1.4 and your good to go.

Those projectors are garbage on my book. Low resolution == not acceptable for movies for this gen 3d games those projectors might be ok. I personally wouldn't consider anything that doesn't have 1080p resolution(or better). (but my quote was in context of tv's taking 120Hz input, not projectors or pc monitors as the original poster was raving about non existing tv's that get short end of the stick)

 

[ShadowRunner]

I happen to own one of those Optoma 720p projectors before i upgraded to a 1080p Sanyo PLV-Z2000. I must say they still hold up very well, especially for gaming, i would definately recommend to anyone. When you consider most 3D gaming is going to be 720p this gen and most likely next gen aswel anything more than 720p is a waste, i dont see 2x1080p being viable anytime soon for realtime rendering and we dont even know if 1080p will be standard for 2D content next-gen yet. Talking purely in terms of 3D gaming of course, dont want to get into the 1080p vs 720p debate.

 

[manux]

I happen to own one of those Optoma 720p projectors before i upgraded to a 1080p Sanyo PLV-Z2000. I must say they still hold up very well, especially for gaming, i would definately recommend to anyone. When you consider most 3D gaming is going to be 720p this gen and most likely next gen aswel anything more than 720p is a waste, i dont see 2x1080p being viable anytime soon for realtime rendering and we dont even know if 1080p will be standard for 2D content next-gen yet. Talking purely in terms of 3D gaming of course, dont want to get into the 1080p vs 720p debate.

I guess my mileage differs because I see movies as my main 3d use case and games would come as a distant second(I don't game on pc and ps3/xbox360 3d games will probably be few and far between). I don't see any way I would downgrade my main big screen to 720p now that I have gotten used to 1080p.

 

[ShadowRunner]

I was thinking about keeping my current 2d setup instead of replacing it and buying a cheap 3D only setup to go alongside it both using the same screen. Dont want to spend tons on a 1st gen 3D device as there is bound to be issues to begin with, so will pick up something cheap just so i dont feel like im missing out

 

[NeoTechni]

Similarly I'm not aware of any sensibly priced large 3d displays or projectors. Only sensible stuff is relatively small pc monitors or low resolution projectors. Projectors have plenty of road to walk before they can show blu-ray 3d movies in full resolution while also having sensible price(i.e. projector costing less than 3000$).

Acer sells a 23 inch one for $400 USD
I've seen a 40 inch 120 hz for $500 CDN

But when we have 3D working on current TVs already, they shouldn't be stopping those from working




My response from the 3DGA

First, thanks for your email and thinking of us. You are correct that many display manufacturers are trying to take the proprietary route with their glasses. I'm not sure if the Mitsubishi representative you spoke with is correct, though.

Mitsubishi's unit is a DLP television, and if it has a VESA connector, it should work with multiple LCD shutter glasses in the market. I know at Prime Time in Ottawa, we used Mitsubishi DLP televisions with wireless XpanD shutter glasses, and they were not Mitsubishi specific.

Samsung is a different animal because that is based on 120Hz LCD panels. If it has a VESA connector, the chances for interoperability are much better.

The NVIDIA kit is not a good choice for standardization at all. While it's an excellent product, NVIDIA's nature is proprietary, and this is part of the problem.

There are a lot of misunderstandings around HDMI 1.3 and 1.4. HDMI 1.3 is fine for S-3D movies, and is very capable of S-3D gaming as demonstrated by Blitz Games Studios and Ubisoft. This is the real kicker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xumhTemxHJ8

If Sony's positioning is correct, the PS3 will detect whether or not the unit is actually HDMI 1.4, and that will lock their video game compatibility. Blu-Ray movies are a different matter and will be treated separately.

However, Mitsubishi is marketing an HDMI 1.3 to 1.4 conversion add-on for their television. We will have to wait and see how the PS3 interacts with this.

. When you consider most 3D gaming is going to be 720p this gen and most likely next gen aswel anything more than 720p is a waste

Agreed, which makes me sad that most 3dtvs will be 1080p....

 

[manux]

Acer sells a 23 inch one for $400 USD
I've seen a 40 inch 120 hz for $500 CDN

But when we have 3D working on current TVs already, they shouldn't be stopping those from working

Acer one is not a tv, it's a pc monitor. On the other 40" whatever I cannot comment as you didn't provide any real info what the display is.

My take is that stuff you are talking about might work and even if it doesn't it's still perfectly valid for it's original use case(pc). Home consumer electronics are different beast than pc market. All those millions of bravias, vizios, samsungs, panasonics etc. never supported 3d and never will(and those are the tv's great majority has at home). It's going to be many years to come before 3d tv's conquer the living room. We are now in the very early phases where early adopters and other freaks buy 3d displays. There isn't going to be significant fragmentation in that market because the standard is solid and supported by the whole industry(now that the standard exists...)

Do you still think there is going to be big fragmentation or are you just disappointed pc stuff you might have bought might not work with ps3?

 

[manux]

Agreed, which makes me sad that most 3dtvs will be 1080p....

Why? It's trivial to scale 720p->1080p. And besides 3d blu-ray movies are 1080p

I don't see glasses being proprietary any worse problem than having currently choice of buying an lcd, plasma, led lcd display or a projector. If you wish to have multiple 3d tv's at home at worst you might want to buy them all from same brand so you get interoperable glasses.


At least I view the 3d tv purchase so that when I change tv it's not problem to change the glasses at same time. Or perhaps at that time there already exists technology to provide 3d without glasses. It's all good as long as the source material and connections are compatible with whatever display technologies manufacturers come up with. This compatibility should be achieved with hdmi1.4(transfer/connection) and blu-ray 3d(source for movies). I don't see any real reason to limit innovation on displays in this use case.

 

[NeoTechni]

Do you still think there is going to be big fragmentation or are you just disappointed pc stuff you might have bought might not work with ps3?

I still see fragmentation.
And I havent bought anything yet, but I'd like to.

Why? It's trivial to scale 720p->1080p. And besides 3d blu-ray movies are 1080p

Lag. I want 3D for games more than movies

 

[manux]

I still see fragmentation.
And I havent bought anything yet, but I'd like to.



Lag. I want 3D for games more than movies

There isn't any reason why scaling would add lag if it is implemented properly. Where and how do you see fragmentation?

 

[NeoTechni]

There isn't any reason why scaling would add lag if it is implemented properly. Where and how do you see fragmentation?

Scaling always adds lag. Its an extra step

And I still see fragmentation in that we cant be sure which devices support 3d with which TVs and which glasses.

Hell, even HDMI sound systems need updating, even the damned cables

 

[manux]

Scaling always adds lag. Its an extra step

Not really, simple scaling most likely is not an extra step. In simplified terms what happens inside tv is that data is read from hdmi and written to a framebuffer. Framebuffer is then used by the display to show the pixels. What happens is that scaler reads the input from hdmi and writes output to framebuffer. No lag is added assuming scaler hw is sufficiently fast. Most likely the scaler chip has internal memory big enough to do all calculations "on chip" and only the processed pixels are written to framebuffer.

Scaling itself would be fairly simple and implemented in hw. Simple scaling consists of couple of additions and a shift for bilinear scaling. Most likely the hdmi data goes through this scaler even when you are not using it. This is because "scaler" hw block is responsible for taking in all the different colour formats hdmi supports and converting them to internal format tv uses(yuv, rgb, deep colour, limited colour, pc colours etc). if you don't do this step you would probably have tv that goes against hdmi spec as it wouldn't support all the necessary formats. Similarly you might notice that not all enhancements can be set off from tv(brightness, contrast, sharpening, etc). These happen in the same chip at the same time as the scaling is done.

I have done some work in hw acceleration of video and at least hardwares I'm familiar with do scaling, rotation, sharpening, and other basic primitive operations really, really fast, basicly with same speed as you can read from somewhere and write to memory.

I think you are confusing simple scaling with all the fancy image enhancement algorithms tv's use to make tv/dvd viewable. Those add lag as those algorithms use sequential frames to improve image quality. Simple scaling doesn't need previous/next frame and there isn't anything in scaling algorithm that inherently adds lag.

And I still see fragmentation in that we cant be sure which devices support 3d with which TVs and which glasses

Whatever has hdmi1.4 will work together(i.e. all the new stuff that is coming later this year). 2011/2012 or whenever in future 3d televisions get mass adoption nobody will remember hdmi1.3 anymore. Even the cheap stuff will be hdmi1.4..

Glasses are Irrelevant, only source material can cause fragmentation in this space. It's only good thing that display manufacturers are not tied to single(and perhaps unoptimal) technology. Glasses would just always follow your tv(or old tv if you sold it away or moved it to basement). As long as manufacturers stick with hdmi1.4 spec all is fine in the land of 3d. I.e. if you get a new display all the games and movies still work, only the display changed and you got some new glasses with it (and old glasses follow the old tv).