AMD Radeon VII Announcement and Discussion

[silent_guy]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

I can’t speak for GPU vendors, who might have their shit together more than others, and I can’t disclose specifics about the stuff that I do know first or second hand, but the difficulty and cost of a working HBM system is universally underestimated and doesn’t come close to traditional PCB based solutions.

That should be sufficient, since nothing about my claim was extraordinary to begin with. ;-)

 

[SumoSaki]

Given the terrible power efficiency of this card versus a GTX 280 (TDP 215W) what's the thought they can improve per per watt for Navi? AMD have done such a bad job here it doesn't inspire confidence for PS5.

 

[Rootax]

Given the terrible power efficiency of this card versus a GTX 280 (TDP 215W) what's the thought they can improve per per watt for Navi? AMD have done such a bad job here it doesn't inspire confidence for PS5.

Well Navi is a new gpu, you hope they learned from Vega.

 

[itsmydamnation]

I can’t speak for GPU vendors, who might have their shit together more than others, and I can’t disclose specifics about the stuff that I do know first or second hand, but the difficulty and cost of a working HBM system is universally underestimated and doesn’t come close to traditional PCB based solutions.

That should be sufficient, since nothing about my claim was extraordinary to begin with. ;-)

The idea that something is so bad at yielding/integration yet has mass market adoption ( google, amd, nv , intel, Fujitsu ,etc) is extraordinary. We see what happens when something yields poorly, its called intel 10nm.

The next part is what doesn't count as coming close in terms of cost. if we are to break it down to cost per bit/gbit 1.5x, 2x , 10x ? How about cost per Gb of bandwidth?

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Your implied asumption is then that TSMC's 7 nm process is not (significantly) more expensive than 12nm?

I implied absolutely nothing of the sort.

If VII are indeed harvested products, then they are free profit anyway. Regardless of their costs.

VII is actually the same GPU as a MI50. In memory amount and CU units enabled.

 

[vipa899]

AMD have done such a bad job here it doesn't inspire confidence for PS5.

Was thinking the same, all we have is rumors about Navi, but nothing seen yet. One could think the GPU/CPU design should be allready done, if not allready planned to produce? Theres no valid reason to not show Navi at CES if it was ready or anything high-end that performs above nvidias offerings.
Everything points Navi to being a mid-range/low power GPU/Chip, makes perfect sense for a console to be honest.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Was thinking the same, all we have is rumors about Navi, but nothing seen yet. One could think the GPU/CPU design should be allready done, if not allready planned to produce? Theres no valid reason to not show Navi at CES if it was ready or anything high-end that performs above nvidias offerings.
Everything points Navi to being a mid-range/low power GPU/Chip, makes perfect sense for a console to be honest.

"Hey here's our new product please buy lots of them, oh by the way we'll be shipping a much better product next year."

Is that how you would handle product announcements?

 

[vipa899]

"Hey here's our new product please buy lots of them, oh by the way we'll be shipping a much better product next year."

If AMD has a matching GPU in the works releasing this summer (or isnt it this summer?), then why not showing it off or atleast some specs, or a sign it can actually keep up with Nvidia? I mean this RadeonVII gpu could mean people loose faith in AMD, by again doing another product that doesnt compete with Nvidia? Quite short-sighted otherwise to handle it like this, big companies like AMD think in the long run, very long run. Those stocked vegas would perhaps mean a loss for the first few months if even that, but launching yet another dissapointing product doesnt seem the way to go.

People where expecting a 'come back' from AMD at CES2019, it was rather a dissapointment. I think we all want competition, it will benefit us all, those Nvidia prices are way too high imo. No matter how good their performance is, it needs to be more affordable to reach a bigger public.

 

[silent_guy]

The idea that something is so bad at yielding/integration yet has mass market adoption ( google, amd, nv , intel, Fujitsu ,etc) is extraordinary. We see what happens when something yields poorly, its called intel 10nm.

The next part is what doesn't count as coming close in terms of cost. if we are to break it down to cost per bit/gbit 1.5x, 2x , 10x ? How about cost per Gb of bandwidth?

Google, Nvidia and Fujitsu are using HBM only for HPC products where silicon cost is just a minor fraction of the system price.

One where silicon yield can be low and component cost high without material impact on gross margins. Products that can’t be categorized as mass market adoption at all.

Nvidia uses GDDR for all its mass market products despite the fact that HBM is a higher performing solution. If cost were close to equivalent, why would they do that?

The only valid point you bring up is Intel for its AMD GPU design. One that can only be found in products that are priced much higher than usual, and more than likely a one off. One that also only has 1 HBM site, which lessen packaging yield losses considerably.

The problem with Intel’s 10nm wasn’t that it was just yielding badly, it was that yield was close to 0. Nobody said that HBM was yielding close to 0. But it’s a solution with low volume and expensive base components, and with an expensive packing system that has much lower yields than the alternative.

Perfect for high priced products, lousy for mass market ones.

Unfortunately for AMD, they are forced to use it to work around their power inefficient GPU architecture.

 

[Tkumpathenurple]

Are you talking Nvidia or AMD here?

Because I don’t think Vega VII counts as a competitive product.

“Underwhelming” is almost too kind.

I think I was quite clear, and your confusion is artificial.

Vega VII offers comparable performance to the RTX2080, except for RT, of course.

As long as they can offer lower prices or enticing bundles, they're competitive. Simple.

 

[silent_guy]

As long as they can offer lower prices or enticing bundles, they're competitive. Simple.

Depends on POV.

Since we’re in the architecture part of the forum, I’d say it’s a very underwhelming GPU, just like Vega 10.

Can it be made attractive for a consumer? Of course, by slapping a low price on it. But that doesn’t make it any technically underwhelming.

 

[AlphaWolf]

If AMD has a matching GPU in the works releasing this summer (or isnt it this summer?), then why not showing it off or atleast some specs, or a sign it can actually keep up with Nvidia? I mean this RadeonVII gpu could mean people loose faith in AMD, by again doing another product that doesnt compete with Nvidia? Quite short-sighted otherwise to handle it like this, big companies like AMD think in the long run, very long run. Those stocked vegas would perhaps mean a loss for the first few months if even that, but launching yet another dissapointing product doesnt seem the way to go.
People where expecting a 'come back' from AMD at CES2019, it was rather a dissapointment. I think we all want competition, it will benefit us all, those Nvidia prices are way too high imo. No matter how good their performance is, it needs to be more affordable to reach a bigger public.

The goal of them announcing new products is to actually sell them, not to quell your personal disappointment in their lineup.
It doesn't make sense to sabotage a product announcement with a further out product announcement which might make consumers wait on a purchase, making the immediate product DOA.
As for pricing, it is a matter of what the market will bear. It is apparent that $700 is not too much if the performance fits.

 

[A1xLLcqAgt0qc2RyMz0y]

Well, maybe AMD has figured out how to make a Radeon VII for less than 750 US-$, now that they are asking 699 US-$ including a game bundle for it, thus making Rayfields supposed idea feasible?

Or they are selling it for a loss and making it up on volume and software sales like TI tried with their ill fated console.

HINT: That did not work out for TI.

 

[vipa899]

The goal of them announcing new products is to actually sell them, not to quell your personal disappointment in their lineup.

It is also important to think in the long run, yet another flop might do damage in the long run. Everywhere on youtube, forums etc you see people being dissapointed with AMD's showing, they were expecting Navi perhaps. MS first Xbox lost them 4billion, but thats an investment for the future.

 

[Tkumpathenurple]

Depends on POV.

Since we’re in the architecture part of the forum, I’d say it’s a very underwhelming GPU, just like Vega 10.

Can it be made attractive for a consumer? Of course, by slapping a low price on it. But that doesn’t make it any technically underwhelming.

Okay then Obi Wan

It's technically underwhelming in the same sense that Vega, generally, is pretty underwhelming. But it is what it is: a 7nm variant of Vega.

Do you criticise cheetahs for being poor swimmers? If not, maybe consider not criticising 7nm Vega for being Vega.

 

[rcf]

Nvidia's 16nm GP100, released in Q1/2016, would probably beat AMD's 7nm Vega20 released in Q4/2018.

 

[silent_guy]

Do you criticise cheetahs for being poor swimmers? If not, maybe consider not criticising 7nm Vega for being Vega.

It was perfectly possible for AMD to make some incremental fixes while keeping the same core architecture. Think Polaris compared to earlier GCN chips in terms of IPC or lower level power efficiency changes.

I wonder if they did even that.

 

[silent_guy]

It doesn't make sense to sabotage a product announcement with a further out product announcement which might make consumers wait on a purchase, making the immediate product DOA.

Not saying anything about Navi instead of overhyping who fantastic their next GPU be half a year down the road is a remarkable improvement!

 

[Geeforcer]

I think I was quite clear, and your confusion is artificial.

Vega VII offers comparable performance to the RTX2080, except for RT, of course.

As long as they can offer lower prices or enticing bundles, they're competitive. Simple.

I think VII will have a very tought time competing with 1080TI. At this point Pascal Vs Vega is a settled affair, and VII is not bringing any new features from a consumer perspective. As such, you have comparable performance at much higher price and worse power consumption Vs a card that had been out for two years.

 

[mrcorbo]

I think VII will have a very tought time competing with 1080TI. At this point Pascal Vs Vega is a settled affair, and VII is not bringing any new features from a consumer perspective. As such, you have comparable performance at much higher price and worse power consumption Vs a card that had been out for two years.

If you could still buy 1080tis, the 2080 wouldn't be competitive with it either. Not at the price point it ended up at.