Am. Football games 2008 PS3/X360

[joker454]

Joker, now that the PS3 is getting some more support from Sony, what is your opinion of the differences between the two platforms?

Hold on, let me put my flame proof suit on........ok ready In all honestly, much of what I saw early on has stayed the same. Between the two, the GPU in the 360 outclasses the PS3's, and the CPU in the PS3 outclasses the 360's. I'm sure I'll get more flack for saying that, but I call it as I see it. Alot of it comes down to how much 'Edge' type processing helps your game.

Games that don't need to spend spu's on Edge type processing (like little big planet) will be better on PS3 since they can spend all the spu's on math crunching to an extent that the 360 simply can't match.

Games that hugely benefit from Edge type processing (like being able to consistently get ~40%+ culling from the spu's) can potentially run better on the PS3.

Games that don't benefit from Edge type processing (most notably backface culling) will run better on the 360 since it's gpu is faster.

Games that use alot of alpha blending can potentially run better on the 360.

Games that require alot of post processing effects can potentially run better on the 360.

Games that need 25gb+ of data will be better on PS3.

Games that run at 1080p can potentially run better on PS3.


...and so on. Alot depends on the game. I still feel that the 360's gpu puts it in a better position for the 'typical' games we'll see in the next three years. But that's just my feel, I'm sure I'll get called a lazy dev / junior coder / charlatan for it

I noticed you said that the cell was now noticably faster than the Xenon, so how much of an increase in performance increase are you seeing?

For our title, the 360 build is still running quicker than the PS3 build. Our cpu requirements aren't severe, and depending on the camera view, we'll typically fall into the 15%-20% culling range, so the 360's abilities are better suited to our title. Having said that, ya cell is way faster than the xenon's ppu's. We do far far more processing on Cell than on 360's cpu's, but most of it is processing to help RSX. We lean much more on the 360's gpu than on the PS3's if you get what I mean. We're not done yet though, lots of time left on both builds.

 

[almighty]

Hold on, let me put my flame proof suit on........ok ready In all honestly, much of what I saw early on has stayed the same. Between the two, the GPU in the 360 outclasses the PS3's, and the CPU in the PS3 outclasses the 360's. I'm sure I'll get more flack for saying that, but I call it as I see it. Alot of it comes down to how much 'Edge' type processing helps your game.

Games that don't need to spend spu's on Edge type processing (like little big planet) will be better on PS3 since they can spend all the spu's on math crunching to an extent that the 360 simply can't match.

Thanks for your honesty joker, Now you have mensioned culling of geometry an awful lot so i assume that its the vertex side of things that RSX cant keep up with Xenos. Is this because RSX is just plain bad at vertex calculations or because Xenos's unified shader architecture being able to assign more pipes to vertex processing? thus giving 360 the ability to have alot more vertex performance then RSX?. Also aside from vertex processing how does RSX fair agaisnt Xenos in other departments? Did you have trouble getting RSX to run the pixel shaders at the same performance as Xenos or was it easy as pie due to RSX specualted extreme shader performance? Would you even be able to comment on the pixel shader performance between the 2 GPU's in relation to your game engine?

Many Thanks :smile:

 

[swanlee]

Wow, yet another example of the 360 running REAL games better than the PS3. So does anyone still honestly think the PS3 is MORE powerful than the 360? If it is it certainly has an odd way of showing it in actual games.

Blame the devs all you want but we have a huge trend where different games, in different genre's, using different graphic engines by different developers are running and looking better on the 360. It's not a coincidence anymore, it's pretty solid proof now that in real games the PS3 cannot keep up with the 360.

 

[almighty]

Wow, yet another example of the 360 running REAL games better than the PS3. So does anyone still honestly think the PS3 is MORE powerful than the 360? If it is it certainly has an odd way of showing it in actual games.

Blame the devs all you want but we have a huge trend where different games, in different genre's, using different graphic engines by different developers are running and looking better on the 360. It's not a coincidence anymore, it's pretty solid proof now that in real games the PS3 cannot keep up with the 360.

REAL games?

 

[Tap In]

Wow, yet another example of the 360 running REAL games better than the PS3. So does anyone still honestly think the PS3 is MORE powerful than the 360? If it is it certainly has an odd way of showing it in actual games.

Blame the devs all you want but we have a huge trend where different games, in different genre's, using different graphic engines by different developers are running and looking better on the 360. It's not a coincidence anymore, it's pretty solid proof now that in real games the PS3 cannot keep up with the 360.

although I agree with you in principle that 360 is running games compared to PS3 better than anyone gave it credit 1 year ago, this post by Joker is most likely a much more accurate description of the situation...

thanks for your input joker

 

[goonergaz]

Wow, yet another example of the 360 running REAL games better than the PS3. So does anyone still honestly think the PS3 is MORE powerful than the 360? If it is it certainly has an odd way of showing it in actual games.

Blame the devs all you want but we have a huge trend where different games, in different genre's, using different graphic engines by different developers are running and looking better on the 360. It's not a coincidence anymore, it's pretty solid proof now that in real games the PS3 cannot keep up with the 360.

lol, well that's me sold!

joker, thanks for the input - great read!

 

[swanlee]

"REAL games?"

Yeah games on the shelf or ones that are soon to come out. None of this hypothetical stuff, Actual games are running better on the 360. Even if the PS3 is theoretically more powerful it sure isn't showing it in actual video games.

 

[almighty]

"REAL games?"

Yeah games on the shelf or ones that are soon to come out. None of this hypothetical stuff, Actual games are running better on the 360. Even if the PS3 is theoretically more powerful it sure isn't showing it in actual video games.

And yet there are REAL PS3 exclusive games on par with 360 games, not to mension Oblivion, a game that many said would be horrible on PS3 and yet it turned out better on PS3.

 

[goonergaz]

lets not lower this great thread into 'fanboi warz' shall we?

swanlee, it's hardly 'proof' that X360 is more powerful...hell the only 'proof' I see is that by the end of the year PS3 games should begin to look better on PS3 (the way I read it) as devs get more to grips with the PS3 h/w.

but all told it seems both are very similar in power:

PS3 CPU > X360 CPU
X360 GPU > PS3 GPU

It's a draw with potential for both machines to shine in different areas

 

[Tap In]

come on guys... we were getting some good info in here about the dev state of both consoles from joker, please do not turn this into a crap thread

 

[swanlee]

"swanlee, it's hardly 'proof' that X360 is more powerful"

If the performance of games are not an accurate benchmark of real world power of a GAME console than what is?

"not to mension Oblivion"

I wouldn't mention Oblivion either as it had an EXTRA YEAR of development time and lacked AA of the 360 version and also had certain textures downgraded compared to the 360 version.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

"swanlee, it's hardly 'proof' that X360 is more powerful"

If the performance of games are not an accurate benchmark of real world power of a GAME console than what is?

The hardware is only half the equation. The other half is software. XB360 having better games overall means that it has been possible for developers to get better performance in their software from its hardware in this period of time. That doesn't tell you if the hardware is better, or it's easier to develop for, or if PS3 will always remain harder to develop for, or if the developers are investing as much effort in creating the PS3 versions as the XB360 versions.

 

[Darkon]

Wow, yet another example of the 360 running REAL games better than the PS3. So does anyone still honestly think the PS3 is MORE powerful than the 360? If it is it certainly has an odd way of showing it in actual games.

Blame the devs all you want but we have a huge trend where different games, in different genre's, using different graphic engines by different developers are running and looking better on the 360. It's not a coincidence anymore, it's pretty solid proof now that in real games the PS3 cannot keep up with the 360.

Look at the 2nd and 1st party stuff and dare to say ps3 cannot keep up with 360, it looks to be other way around mate and no doubt most 3rd party devs sooner or later will catch up it's just a matter of time.

Thank you for your reply joker, but anyway Xenos does indeed have a vertex advantage you aren’t the first dev to state this on this forum but you make it sound like RSX truly is worthless in vertex processing which is hard to believe especially since well look at Resistance , HS and few other titles, as far as geometry goes they don't seem to be lacking.

 

[swanlee]

"it looks to be other way around mate and no doubt most 3rd party devs sooner or later will catch up it's just a matter of time."

How is that? There still is not a single PS3 game that has better textures than Kameo which was a 360 Launch title. Where are all these Exclusive PS3 games that out shine 360 Exclusives? You guys are really making a ton of excuses for the PS3 when it should not need the excuses. In console gaming when has the more expensive NEWER console ever fallen behind technically the older less expensive console? It's happening now with the PS3.

How are they going to catch up when there will always be an extra Year developers have been able to work on the 360? Just because developers progress on the PS3 doesn't mean all progression on the 360 magically stops.

 

[goonergaz]

I would say in a crude way X360 - being so easy to get to grips with, having all that extra help and having a year headstart is probably near peaking (compared to PS3).

PS3 tho still has some way to go, with Devs a least around 1 year behind and with far more complicated arcitecture to get to grips with...I (personally) think PS3 will be like PS2 - think back to those launch titles and then more recent stuff? The gap is huge.

Likewise, how many X360 games have surpassed Kameo?

I just think the PS3 has had a very rough start, but at least the hardware looks to be reliable, so longevity is on its side

 

[Shifty Geezer]

In console gaming when has the more expensive NEWER console ever fallen behind technically the older less expensive console?

When it's been harder to develop for and devs have put more effort into creating the game for the older, cheaper machine with the larger install base...

How are they going to catch up when there will always be an extra Year developers have been able to work on the 360? Just because developers progress on the PS3 doesn't mean all progression on the 360 magically stops.

The theory is leg-room. XB360 started nearer it's peak abilities due to an easier development environment. Because of this, it's advances won't be so pronounced. PS3 started slower as devs are trying to get their head around it's unique processor arrangement. Once they've managed that, the improvements should be considerable. That's the theory anyhow. Because of this, it's too early to say either machine beats the other. They haven't had enough time to prove themselves. You have to wait a couple of years and see what the peak achievements are in games, to see the peak abilities of the hardware.

 

[blakjedi]

I would say in a crude way X360 - being so easy to get to grips with, having all that extra help and having a year headstart is probably near peaking (compared to PS3).

That would only be true assuming you have seen every trick in the xb360's bookbeing run full tilt... and I'm sure thats not true... in that case you would see the PS3 peking this time next year also... which I estimate would not be true either...

 

[Todd33]

That would only be true assuming you have seen every trick in the xb360's bookbeing run full tilt... and I'm sure thats not true... in that case you would see the PS3 peking this time next year also... which I estimate would not be true either...

Agreed, but peaking maybe a bad term. Maybe "bang for the buck" or "low hanging fruit" are better terms. Devs can get the good performance for little work and leave the remaining untapped power for later years when their engines go through more iterations.

The 360 is obviously going to get to this point first, due to both more mature devs tools and easier to access hardware.

 

[warb]

Look at the 2nd and 1st party stuff and dare to say ps3 cannot keep up with 360, it looks to be other way around mate and no doubt most 3rd party devs sooner or later will catch up it's just a matter of time.

Thank you for your reply joker, but anyway Xenos does indeed have a vertex advantage you aren’t the first dev to state this on this forum but you make it sound like RSX truly is worthless in vertex processing which is hard to believe especially since well look at Resistance , HS and few other titles, as far as geometry goes they don't seem to be lacking.

One problem the XB360 might have is most of its big exclusives are being developed on middleware (? MT Framework, UE3). Whereas Heavenly Sword, LBP, Uncharted, Lair and pretty much every big Sony PS3 exclusive is built from the ground up to that systems strengths. Rare games, Halo 3, SC: Conviction and Ninja Gaiden 2 should be a better measure of the 360, right?

 

[swanlee]

"You have to wait a couple of years and see what the peak achievements are in games"

In my opinion the way PS3 sales are going it does not have the luxury of a couple of years to prove it's superiority over the 360. If the PS3 is REALLY so much more powerful than the 360 as Sony claims it would not need YEARS to show it, it should be pretty apparent from the start.

The Xbox did not need years to show it had better hardware than the PS2, it did this from day one.