All purpose sales and sales rumors/anecdotes thread next gen+

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It's kind of disturbing to me that the vibrant core is so relatively few active gamers. The fact 6 million X1/PS4 can compares to ~57 million PS3/360 (USA numbers) already is proof.

OTOH I saw a headline that the top most used netflix machine is consoles (so, better than tablets, DVD players, Roku etc). Things like that strike me as very positive for the prospects of consoles.

Rangers, I don't know if you found camelcamelcamel.com yet, but it tracks Amazon prices and sales rankings. So for comparisons you can put in an address to the product page and click the sales rank tab and see the daily ranking.

I thought the Kinect-less SKU was interesting. It peaked around #69 when it was released and quickly dropped in the 200s, then after the E3 conference it peaked at #28 and has been in the #40-50 range since.

In contrast the Destiny PS4 bundle entered at #5, peaked at #4 and is still at #52, at the same point and time the Kinectless bundle was around #230. I think difference is striking and if the trend extends outside Amazon, MS is in trouble.

Currently the PS4 is at #8 & #18 for June and the XB1 SKUs are side by side at #45 and #46. While the Destiny SKU won't show up in the NPDs, I'm not sure the two SKUs for XB1 can win June, it might be close.
 
We are definitely seeing the transition take place. I think this also brings to light the fact that just because the PS3 and 360 have a huge install base (somewhat inflated due to high failure rates of the early models), something like 160 million units sold, doesn't mean the active gamer community is anywhere near that large, and even last year, was likely a made up of a small fraction of that 160 install base. All three new consoles combined only account for about 18 million units, and they are already accounting for over 50% of the software sales tells me there is, and has been for a while, lots of last gen consoles collecting dust. This in my opinion signals a sign that the videogame console market didn't really expand last generation as much as some people seemed to believe. A lot of people come and go, and I think we are seeing the majority of the "core" gamer market switching relatively quickly, but the idea that these new consoles, even the PS4 are a shoe in to sell a 100 million units because of the "market expansion" last gen is a fallacy.

The 360 and PS3 benefited from a very long lifecycle, one that I cant see these new consoles enjoying. We have new young gamers getting their first console every day, but at the same time we also have just as many adults slipping out of the market due to lack of time and other responsibilities that adults get to enjoy. To be young again. LOL

You're reaching sweeping conclusions about the level of expansion of the entire console industry last gen, by looking only at YOY per month sales in a single territory?

*shrug*

I'd argue it's unsurprising the new gen console took such a huge proportion of software revenues in May, when a) pratically no games were released for old gen in that month and b) practically no games were released for old gen in that month.

I'd think its a little bit premature to try to devine anything from the console US May performance about the global active console gaming userbase last generation.
 
You're reaching sweeping conclusions about the level of expansion of the entire console industry last gen, by looking only at YOY per month sales in a single territory?

*shrug*

I'd argue it's unsurprising the new gen console took such a huge proportion of software revenues in May, when a) pratically no games were released for old gen in that month (Watch Dogs says hi) and b) practically no games were released for old gen in that month.

I'd think its a little bit premature to try to devine anything from the console US May performance about the global active console gaming userbase last generation.

The point that I was really making was the fact that people often look at the total number of units sold, 160 million, and assume that userbase is that big, and it simply isn't anywhere near that many. Between a high early failure rate for the 360, and to a lesser extent PS3, and people who bought one to play COD during its boom, but have now become board of it and have moved on to other things. The active gamer community isn't shrinking, I just think its foolish to think there are 160 million people waiting to buy a next gen console, there aren't. The core gamer community isn't that much larger than it was a decade ago, the generation just lasted long enough to see a lot more people come and go. In a five or six year cycle, I would be shocked to see this generation of consoles sell any more units than the PS/N64/Saturn generation.
 
It's kind of disturbing to me that the vibrant core is so relatively few active gamers. The fact 6 million X1/PS4 can compares to ~57 million PS3/360 (USA numbers) already is proof.

OTOH I saw a headline that the top most used netflix machine is consoles (so, better than tablets, DVD players, Roku etc). Things like that strike me as very positive for the prospects of consoles.

Those numbers alone don't tell much.

The holiday season is the most active buying period of software. I'd bet general/casual gamers participate more during this period. I wouldn't use one month during the slowest time of the year to gauge the overall market.

Also there is practically no used next gen market in comparison to the used 360/PS3 market. Those numbers don't take account the a part of the gaming market that consumes a rather significant portion of 360/ps3 crowd's gaming funds.
 
It's kind of disturbing to me that the vibrant core is so relatively few active gamers. The fact 6 million X1/PS4 can compares to ~57 million PS3/360 (USA numbers) already is proof.

OTOH I saw a headline that the top most used netflix machine is consoles (so, better than tablets, DVD players, Roku etc). Things like that strike me as very positive for the prospects of consoles.

Those numbers alone don't tell much.

The holiday season is the most active buying period of software. I'd bet general/casual gamers participate more during this period. I wouldn't use one month during the slowest time of the year to gauge the overall market.

Also there is practically no used next gen market in comparison to the used 360/PS3 market. Those numbers don't take account the a part of the gaming market that consumes a rather significant portion of 360/ps3 crowd's gaming funds.

Edit: I might be wrong because its not clear whether those numbers include used game sales.
 
All three new consoles combined only account for about 18 million units, and they are already accounting for over 50% of the software sales tells me there is, and has been for a while, lots of last gen consoles collecting dust.
Very flawed reasoning. You assume that people only own consoles to play the latest games. Plenty of console gamers are playing older games - they can still be fun! Lack of new software selling to these machines only means a lack of new titles that appeal to the existing install-base. That's probably a mix of franchise fatigue (buy another FIFA for my XB360??) and rather weak-sauce implementations of next-gen titles that don't really work too well. Or even free games from PS+ taking up the game time. Or just download titles - I'm currently playing Borderlands 2 which consumes a lot of gaming hours on the one download title.

Whatever the reason, one can't equate a lack of buying new software with a lack of actual gaming.
 
I think a big problem might be online multiplayer.

Gamers are getting hundreds and hundreds and even thousands of hours out of very solid very good multiplayer. They are spending their free time spending countless hours playing CoD, BF3/4, GTA Online, LoL, DOTA, Team Fortress 2, Starcraft2, Diablo3, World of Tanks, Titanfall, etc.

Back in the day a better lengthed single player game would give you 15-20 hours of play time in some good long single player action adventure games. Maybe they'd finish the game twice and double that time. Maybe with an RPG 30-70hrs and if they are completionists 120-140hrs.

But with online the whole thing has changed. People will spend months and months on a single game.

You couple socializing and competitive and cooperative multiplayer and its something people love and some will devote multiple hundreds to even multiple thousands of hours to over the course of many months or years.

I don't think this is something Jim Sterling can go on a tirade about. Great multiplayer is to be applauded. But now alot of gamers have everything they need to streatch $60 from whatever blockbuster ActiviBliz/EA/Ubisoft title and be satisfied for their recreational time for several months. Its like the railroad industry in some way once a good enough track system was built the track laying industry weren't needed to be so big any more so it shrank alot.
 
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I can agree. When I was younger in highschool and before I would buy a new game a month (lots of shoveling snow , cutting grass or just plain old begging my parents lol) but then came UO and my buying habits went down to 3-4 games a year.

Even now i'm gearing up for star citizen and most of my game buying will disappear
 
It's kind of disturbing to me that the vibrant core is so relatively few active gamers. The fact 6 million X1/PS4 can compares to ~57 million PS3/360 (USA numbers) already is proof.
I'd say that "proof" is a bit strong, at least in the scientific sense. I'd agree that the trend, as well as a couple of indicators for the future are there.

OTOH I saw a headline that the top most used netflix machine is consoles (so, better than tablets, DVD players, Roku etc). Things like that strike me as very positive for the prospects of consoles.

This one, on the other hand, is a dead end going forward. What you are seeing there is all the PS360s still being attached to TV sets, and the other platforms gaining ground. The GoogleTV shown off yesterday, the FireTV, the upcoming AppleTV and so on all offer to do what the consoles do in this area. In tiny, quiet, packages costing $99 or less. And the mobile platform use is growing as well of course.

It is interesting that these new TV-boxes also seem to promote gaming as another leg to stand on going forward. It remains to be seen how popular that will be, but it is another source of competition for consoles. Which of course yet again begs the question of just how big the core console audience really is.
 
It's kind of disturbing to me that the vibrant core is so relatively few active gamers. The fact 6 million X1/PS4 can compares to ~57 million PS3/360 (USA numbers) already is proof.

OTOH I saw a headline that the top most used netflix machine is consoles (so, better than tablets, DVD players, Roku etc). Things like that strike me as very positive for the prospects of consoles.

To be really honest, I don't think that's all that accurate. When a game sells in the 7 digit number (millions), it's usually regarded a huge success. That PS4 and X1 already have a market close to that size merely demonstrates that a game can already potentially sell in those quantities in relative short time.

The different to a 60-80 million market on the PS3/360 is that the demographic is probably a lot more varied. More people equals different interests, so the sales are distributed over more games. On both the PS4 and X1, there are fewer titles available, so the ones that do launch have less competition and get a lot more attention.

I would guess that over the typical lifespan of a console (5-8 years) that even the more hardcore gamers tend to buy more games at the start of a generation than towards the end. By the end of it, you're already looking at quite a few games you own and you might still be playing some multiplayer games frequently that will lead to less interest in fewer newer games. IMO this is also the reason why it's so lucrative to be there at the start of a new generation and why lots of developers are kicking out ports of older games so quickly - because there's a huge potential to resale old and already developed (cheap) content with little effort and huge gains.
 
Very flawed reasoning. You assume that people only own consoles to play the latest games. Plenty of console gamers are playing older games - they can still be fun! Lack of new software selling to these machines only means a lack of new titles that appeal to the existing install-base. That's probably a mix of franchise fatigue (buy another FIFA for my XB360??) and rather weak-sauce implementations of next-gen titles that don't really work too well. Or even free games from PS+ taking up the game time. Or just download titles - I'm currently playing Borderlands 2 which consumes a lot of gaming hours on the one download title.

Whatever the reason, one can't equate a lack of buying new software with a lack of actual gaming.

I can see what your saying, and I don't completely disagree, but I still think your missing my point. My point is that you cant look at the number of units sold and assume that the active gaming community is anywhere near that large. Its pretty safe to assume that early adopters of the new consoles are pretty active right now, where as a large portion of the 360/PS3 community has either moved on to next gen, or simply moved on from games entirely. The reality is that if you ran a poll on what gamers are currently playing, the majority of gamers wouldn't be playing old games on 360 or PS3, so the active community is definitely transitioning to next gen.
 
Great info in EU market size from GAF

Hardware + Software (without digital) sales for january-may 2014 (vs january-may 2013):

United Kingdom 604 million € (+67%)
Germany 448 million € (+3%)
France 446 million € (+16%)
Spain 215 million € (+9%)
Italy 186 million € (+7%)
Belgium 73 million € (+5%)
Netherlands 72 million € (+9%)

By units (software):

United Kingdom 8 640 000 (=)
Germany 6 920 000 (-24%)
France 5 950 000 (-15%)
Spain 3 210 000 (-6%)
Italy 2 880 000 (-12%)
Belgium 1 070 000 (-20%)
Netherlands 1 060 000 (-14%)

Hardware:

United Kingdom 890 000 (+60%)
Germany 620 000 (-1%)
France 690 000 (+12%)
Spain 390 000 (+1%)
Italy 320 000 (-8%)
Belgium 120 000 (=)
Netherlands 150 000 (+1%)
 
How do they compare to US? Would be very useful info to extrapolate sales. Then again, UK looks pretty anomalous.

The raw numbers look as expected, but the UK groth % looks wrong. If it is really up 60%, that means prviously the UK was behind some other countries in sales which I thought was never true. Did the UK have a economic crash the other parts of the EU never felt?
 
The raw numbers look as expected, but the UK groth % looks wrong. If it is really up 60%, that means prviously the UK was behind some other countries in sales which I thought was never true. Did the UK have a economic crash the other parts of the EU never felt?

I'm surprised more countries don't show a 60% hardware + software increase.
Probably 700-750k of the 890k uk hardware sales were for ps4/xb, of people spending equivalent of $400-500 plus a game or 2 or 3, which is likely 8x as much as they'd spend back last year from jan-may2013 before the new consoles launch.
 
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The point that I was really making was the fact that people often look at the total number of units sold, 160 million, and assume that userbase is that big, and it simply isn't anywhere near that many.

And I'm arguing that you're making statements like the bolded as if it's fact when you actually have no possible way of knowing that. Your analysis is based on an already preconcieved idea that in realistic terms seems more than a little illogical to me.

Even if we estimate that both PS360 has a failure rate as high as 60% for their first two years, and that both sold upto 15 million unit each in their first two years (note: they didn't), that's only 19.2 million bricked consoles... out of 160 million!!!

Failure rates dropped off a cliff after the die shrinks and console redesigns, and even the intial rates wheren't anywhere near as high as 60%. Equally, the greater proportion of PS360 sales happened in the later years after multiple prices drops when the failure rates were negligible.

Even if we take my above rediculous estimate for bricked consoles and round up to the nearest million (for sh!ts and giggles), you cannot feasibly think that 140 million core gaming consoles (since we're not talking about the Wii here) were sold into a market of users, willing to pay as significant a premium as they did (i.e. between $599-150 over 8 years), only to get bored and a significant majority "move on to other things"?

It's your analysis and conclusions that I would argue are critically flawed. Not only because you're making conclusions based on a single month's worth of software sales in one territory, additionally you're not recognising the potential for extraeneous factors that lie outside of the pure sales number but will affect the market in a way as to muddle the view. many of these have been mentioned already in this thread; e.g. online gaming, huge existing libraries of games on existing platforms. Not to mention the fact that the only noteworthy release on PS360 in May was as you mentioned, Watchdogs, which clearly has been marketed and pushed both by its' publisher and a platform holder as a next-gen game (that's not even mentioning the fact that the last version is downright fugly).

Between a high early failure rate for the 360, and to a lesser extent PS3, and people who bought one to play COD during its boom, but have now become board of it and have moved on to other things.

The above makes no rational sense what to ever. Have you even been paying attention to the sales of COD titles? The series sales of more recent installments have barely dipped from their peak (BLOPS2 I believe), so only one game ago. And COD:AW is generating legitimate hype and excitement among the general gaming populace, both online and off.

The COD playerbase has not in any significant measure "become board of it and have moved on to other things". Your statement is patently false.

The active gamer community isn't shrinking, I just think its foolish to think there are 160 million people waiting to buy a next gen console, there aren't. The core gamer community isn't that much larger than it was a decade ago, the generation just lasted long enough to see a lot more people come and go. In a five or six year cycle, I would be shocked to see this generation of consoles sell any more units than the PS/N64/Saturn generation.

The core gaming userbase is likely larger than 160 million consoles, not only because the PS360 were not the only game console on the market able to play AAA console games. The Wii had its fair share, and likely held a cross-section of young gamers who had recieved their console as gift, but are now old enough to choose for themselves what console platform they intend to game on.

Of course there will be some console users that bought a box for one game and didn't really play anything else, moving onto other things, but those leaving console gaming will be miniscule in number and balanced out by the fact that you always have a newer generation of gamers who come of age and are now able to choose, afford and buy both consoles and games for themselves.
 
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And I'm arguing that you're making statements like the bolded as if it's fact when you actually have no possible way of knowing that. Your analysis is based on an already preconcieved idea that in realistic terms seems more than a little illogical to me.

Even if we estimate that both PS360 has a failure rate as high as 60% for their first two years, and that both sold upto 15 million unit each in their first two years (note: they didn't), that's only 19.2 million bricked consoles... out of 160 million!!!

Failure rates dropped off a cliff after the die shrinks and console redesigns, and even the intial rates wheren't anywhere near as high as 60%. Equally, the greater proportion of PS360 sales happened in the later years after multiple prices drops when the failure rates were negligible.

Even if we take my above rediculous estimate for bricked consoles and round up to the nearest million (for sh!ts and giggles), you cannot feasibly think that 140 million core gaming consoles (since we're not talking about the Wii here) were sold into a market of users, willing to pay as significant a premium as they did (i.e. between $599-150 over 8 years), only to get bored and a significant majority "move on to other things"?

It's your analysis and conclusions that I would argue are critically flawed. Not only because you're making conclusions based on a single month's worth of software sales in one territory, additionally you're not recognising the potential for extraeneous factors that lie outside of the pure sales number but will affect the market in a way as to muddle the view. many of these have been mentioned already in this thread; e.g. online gaming, huge existing libraries of games on existing platforms. Not to mention the fact that the only noteworthy release on PS360 in May was as you mentioned, Watchdogs, which clearly has been marketed and pushed both by its' publisher and a platform holder as a next-gen game (that's not even mentioning the fact that the last version is downright fugly).



The above makes no rational sense what to ever. Have you even been paying attention to the sales of COD titles? The series sales of more recent installments have barely dipped from their peak (BLOPS2 I believe), so only one game ago. And COD:AW is generating legitimate hype and excitement among the general gaming populace, both online and off.

The COD playerbase has not in any significant measure "become board of it and have moved on to other things". Your statement is patently false.



The core gaming userbase is likely larger than 160 million consoles, not only because the PS360 were not the only game console on the market able to play AAA console games. The Wii had its fair share, and likely held a cross-section of young gamers who had recieved their console as gift, but are now old enough to choose for themselves what console platform they intend to game on.

Of course there will be some console users that bought a box for one game and didn't really play anything else, moving onto other things, but those leaving console gaming will be miniscule in number and balanced out by the fact that you always have a newer generation of gamers who come of age and are now able to choose, afford and buy both consoles and games for themselves.

I disagree with all of that, but that's ok, neither one of us can be proven right or wrong.
 
And I'm arguing that you're making statements like the bolded as if it's fact when you actually have no possible way of knowing that. Your analysis is based on an already preconcieved idea that in realistic terms seems more than a little illogical to me.

To be fair, the bolded part is pretty as close to fact as you'll ever get. There's absolutely no way that 160 million sold X360 and PS3 == 160 million different consumers. Nada.

If we look at the PS3 that sold roughly 80 million, I would say a not unsubstantial amount of those sold units come from existing consumers that upgraded their noisy console to a more quieter one (me included). That wouldn't exactly cut down the number by 50%, but I'd still think the number would be quite substantial (perhaps 10-20%). From personal experience - I know quite a few PS3 gamers who have upgraded just as I have, because the original console exhibit a failure in form of YLOD syndrom and the newer unit provided us with a much quieter, smaller and cooler unit. I wouldn't underestimate that.

If you subtract those buyers from the total of 80 million and assume similar numbers on the X360, you will have those that own both consoles from the rest. Then there are also those who have bought a console for other purposes (watching Blurays etc). In the case of the PS3, I wouldn't exactly think that number is unsubstantial either. I would think in the end, we might be left with a number around 100-120 million - just a guess on my part.
 
I disagree with all of that, but that's ok, neither one of us can be proven right or wrong.

That's hardly a reasonable position to take. You hold to your opinion based on nothing but your on conjecture because of... well... nothing?

I struggle to understand why you or anyone else would believe that the vast majority of the 160 million last-gen consoles buying have suddenly upped and moved away from games.

So while noone can disprove my position, I think mine is more than a tad more reasonable than one that believes that vast swathes of consumers of a particular product (the buyers of whom are often quite passionate), suddenly up and change their minds without any evidence to support that view.

If the majority of last gen console game buyers don't play games anymore, then the entire industry would be on the brink of collapse, and we'd be taking about how can all platform holders and pubs get the masses back into games in totality, rather than just that the XB1 and PS4 made up the majority of software sales in slow month in the US in 2014.

Do you not see the thread of what I'm saying?
 
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