[360] Forza Motorsport 3
- Thread starter Arwin
- Start date
Sorry, but right now I'm going to assume that your lap is in fact not clean. You do mean the Nurburgring Time Trial, right? If so, you'll probably see my slow time above yours also. Go ahead and add me to your friendlist, so you can verify - with maybe one exception (not sure about the le mans time trial run) they're all clean but generally not very fast laps (no assists). My Live ID (since you haven't filled yours in you can't see it) is ArwinGT4.
EDIT: what's with the drafting in this game? It invalidates your hotlap really quickly when you're racing, but at the same time I barely notice any effect whatsoever. I'll try different cars, but the effect really should be much stronger imho. Strange.
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
I feel you are being a little combative my friend. Let us converse in decency and friendliness.
My friend, I am sure you know that programmers are arrogant and overpaid. This is why I have fired many programmers and like to do this.
Any answer with a serious explanation for poor polygon detail in Forza 3 will be appreciated by me. Did they make a bad design choice? Maybe they should have reduced pixel shaders and had more polygons? Is it memory constraints for the large levels?
Thanks.
Also, how are they creating the rocks? Is it procedural? I feel they have good shape variety in each track but not much variety between tracks.
track authenticity
I've only played Forza 2 briefly, and the Forza 3 demo (both with the MS wheel), and I'm curious about how closely Turn10's rendition of Nurburgring and Sarthe are to real life. I was not impressed with Nurburgring in Forza 2, and Sarthe (from a video) appears to lose some of the feel at the transition from the "wide" Mulsanne Straight to the "narrow" and precarious section before the Indianapolis turn. My impressions are very biased from my experience with GT4, and so I'm asking those who have played Forza 3 whether they would consider this version of these tracks as definitive?
I've only played Forza 2 briefly, and the Forza 3 demo (both with the MS wheel), and I'm curious about how closely Turn10's rendition of Nurburgring and Sarthe are to real life. I was not impressed with Nurburgring in Forza 2, and Sarthe (from a video) appears to lose some of the feel at the transition from the "wide" Mulsanne Straight to the "narrow" and precarious section before the Indianapolis turn. My impressions are very biased from my experience with GT4, and so I'm asking those who have played Forza 3 whether they would consider this version of these tracks as definitive?
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maybe they just played on the systems strenghts to have 60fps. While it 'lacks' in car detail ingame it sports some other nice touches. How about the reflections reflecting other cars in race. Or more geoemtry for the track itself as in trees, bushes etc. Maybe they prioritised track detail before car detail as that is what you see msot of the time. Then tire marks etc (I think tire marks can be costly no?). The art style though is hit or miss. Guess it is a mather of taste.
"Uncertified" Lap Times will always show up behind "Certified" Lap Times. That's what you're noticing on the leaderboards. You'll get a small exclamation point next to your time if you do something causing it be uncertified. They appear briefly during the actual action which trigger them, and will stay permanently attached to the lap time associated with it. Forza 2 didn't make these types of distinctions so the tops of the leader boards were filled with unattainable times. While Forza 2 did implement time penalties for leaving the track surface, there were no penalties for being drug or pushed around the track by faster cars, slingshotting, etc. These actions uncertify times in Forza 3.
For those interested in seeing how the game looks the official livery/photo/video thread over at neogaf has been going since the games release last week.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377835
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377835
So I spent a couple of hours today hot lapping various tracks in my real life car: stock 2002 Corvette Z06. It's lowered an inch all around. I've done a few track days with very competitive times for SCCA like class and thousands of hooligan miles on local backroads. I do all my fun driving with TCS/Active Handling off and since the middle of my first trackday, my ABS has also not been functioning along with TCS/AH (EBCM module failure).
Having gotten that out of the way, I setup the 2002 Z06 in Forza 3, in the same manner. All assists off, manual (no clutch though). I spent about 1.5hours just driving the car around various tracks. While I'd hate to step on expert shoes of those with more video game miles than me, I'll simply state my peace and move on.
The in game representation on my car was scarily accurate. How accurate? Even my girlfriend mentioned how it "sounds the same and oh! it even makes that nasty noise when you're driving fast." The nasty noise being the air dam scapping the pavement during dips. Ofcourse, it was upto me to judge the handling. Anyone who has driven a C5 Z06 at a good pace without any assists can tell you how the car behaves. It likes to have the throttle fed in carefully in 2nd and 3rd. You can be aggressive in feeding the throttle as long as you're smooth but go from 60% to 90/100% in a quick blip and you're going to get tail happy real fast. You can roast up a set of rears in a trackday no problem by having a greedy right foot. The game captured this beautifully. I could do the same corner and either smoke the tires while going slower or feed it in aggressively, go faster and still be hooked up and have the car roatating on exit instead of pushing. Similar to the car irl.
The C5 Z06 also performs at it's best when braked hard in a straight line and turned in with positive throttle vs trail braking which weighs down the front end, making it heavy and inducing understeer. I've seen it time after time now. People try to carry the brakes deep into the corner, end up with a heavy front end that plows, they scrub off too much speed and end up tyring to making it up on the exit which leads to the tail happy scenario described above. Again, this was simluated to a point of awe.
I can go on but for the final comparison, I'd note direction change. A loaded up Z06 does not like direction change. Maintain even a stready throttle while trying to do direction changes and the car will feel heavy! Tap the front brake as you get the steering to center before trainsitioning to the opposite side and you'll feel the front end bite. It's not a proper brake application but a quick brake blip which reset the car load and lets it's transition quickly. It's a text book case of you having to "slow down to go faster" I was surprised to see this modeled accurately in Forza 3. I got to play with this repeatedly on Fujimo Kudo due to the heavy amount of transition in 2nd and 3rd gear.
I could sit here and comment on other cars but I don't see a point. I got the best comparison I could have from this game. My car behaving in the manner I'm used to. Not sure what more I can ask from a simulation model.
Having gotten that out of the way, I setup the 2002 Z06 in Forza 3, in the same manner. All assists off, manual (no clutch though). I spent about 1.5hours just driving the car around various tracks. While I'd hate to step on expert shoes of those with more video game miles than me, I'll simply state my peace and move on.
The in game representation on my car was scarily accurate. How accurate? Even my girlfriend mentioned how it "sounds the same and oh! it even makes that nasty noise when you're driving fast." The nasty noise being the air dam scapping the pavement during dips. Ofcourse, it was upto me to judge the handling. Anyone who has driven a C5 Z06 at a good pace without any assists can tell you how the car behaves. It likes to have the throttle fed in carefully in 2nd and 3rd. You can be aggressive in feeding the throttle as long as you're smooth but go from 60% to 90/100% in a quick blip and you're going to get tail happy real fast. You can roast up a set of rears in a trackday no problem by having a greedy right foot. The game captured this beautifully. I could do the same corner and either smoke the tires while going slower or feed it in aggressively, go faster and still be hooked up and have the car roatating on exit instead of pushing. Similar to the car irl.
The C5 Z06 also performs at it's best when braked hard in a straight line and turned in with positive throttle vs trail braking which weighs down the front end, making it heavy and inducing understeer. I've seen it time after time now. People try to carry the brakes deep into the corner, end up with a heavy front end that plows, they scrub off too much speed and end up tyring to making it up on the exit which leads to the tail happy scenario described above. Again, this was simluated to a point of awe.
I can go on but for the final comparison, I'd note direction change. A loaded up Z06 does not like direction change. Maintain even a stready throttle while trying to do direction changes and the car will feel heavy! Tap the front brake as you get the steering to center before trainsitioning to the opposite side and you'll feel the front end bite. It's not a proper brake application but a quick brake blip which reset the car load and lets it's transition quickly. It's a text book case of you having to "slow down to go faster" I was surprised to see this modeled accurately in Forza 3. I got to play with this repeatedly on Fujimo Kudo due to the heavy amount of transition in 2nd and 3rd gear.
I could sit here and comment on other cars but I don't see a point. I got the best comparison I could have from this game. My car behaving in the manner I'm used to. Not sure what more I can ask from a simulation model.
Being very familiar with the GT4 (and fresh off GT PSP) versions of those tracks, I can say that the tracks are almost exactly identical, and so very likely accurately modelled versus the real thing. Particularly the Nurburgring is almost uncannily the same in both versions. The shadow/light effects when driving on the track in Forza 3 can be a bit tiring at first though, as it causes cars and track in front of you to be almost like a disco, but you get used to that quickly and last time I drove on it in a multi-player race I barely noticed it anymore. I think you'll be perfectly happy with the Ring in Forza 3! I know how badly Turn10 messed it up in previous versions, but this time they got it right (I've driven on the real thing too and both games match up
).As for Le Mans, the first chicane feels tighter than it is in GT4, but I don't know if that reflects the track more accurately or whether there have been slight changes in the real track since then, but that's really the only difference I noticed. The rest of the track is 100% identical to the GT4 version.
And this is a general rule for all tracks in Forza 3 that also appear in GT4 - Laguna Seca, Suzuka, Tsukuba, Motegi, they're all just about exactly the same and I could drive on them competitively almost instantly thanks to my experience with the GT series.
@Robert: cool impressions from the real life comparison, thanks! I always like reading about that.
ShadowRunner
Veteran
Thanks for that i thought the auto calender was the only option for a career mode!
Ill have to go back to it, stopped playing because the auto calender was so un-compelling! well that and also Tekken 6 was released, gotta learn all of Lei's new moves!!
I am not the expert on the exact amount of speed should be induced by drafting at a set distance, but we were playing split screen last night and running Ovals and the drafting allowed for frequent passing. I don't know how "accurate" it is, but my couple hours of play so far wouldn't cause me to label it as "barely noticable." Maybe the cars we drove versus yours is the difference?
As for the career modes I think it is the best sim I have ever played in regards to the setup. To each their own :smile:
Yeah, that could very well be it. Still I wouldn't have expected it. I was driving a Speedster Turbo behind a really big car, and expected to notice a difference, but I didn't. Another time, a car was about half a lap ahead of me but my lap still got invalidated. There was a car driving closely behind me, and now I'm wondering whether that invalidates my lap as well.
Oh yes, definitely. Remember how GT PSP got completely bashed for not having a 'traditional' career mode or prize cars. I don't care at this point - just give me cars and tracks, and let me work at mastering them, and race online.
I caved. Midnight purchase last night. Very different from F2. My times are way off.
Did anyone else find that the early races (2 or 3 laps, maybe 4 miles tops, F to D class) turned into bumper cars?
Do you ever start in anything but 8th place? Now I understand why a previous poster was complaining about qualifying laps. Be nice to have a warmup (test drive) available on the race screen so you don't have to go back out and dig into the track list.
What is it with the driving lines? I turn them off pretty quick anyway, but found them, like F2, to be very bad suggestions at best. Are they just that, general suggestions? They sure as hell are not the fastest way around the track! If I followed the lines in some of these cars, I may not wreck but I am going to come out of these turns a lot slower. Just doesn't make sense.
Since I play on a projector, I won't much comment on the graphics directly. Plenty of it may be my older equipment at this point. Are some of the screens glitching and showing only B&W, or is that just a function of how sterile and sharp the menus and some cars appear?
Only real complaint so far, the AI. I have it set on Hard (is that the top level, someone said there were only 3 AI levels) and other than having to bash my way through, since the AI doesn't care you are inside on the curve and halfway up their body - they just pull over anyway, even with a lesser car I still manage to get to the top for the most part. Hard on equivalent cars in F2 was fairly difficult, this is childs play.
Did anyone else find that the early races (2 or 3 laps, maybe 4 miles tops, F to D class) turned into bumper cars?
Do you ever start in anything but 8th place? Now I understand why a previous poster was complaining about qualifying laps. Be nice to have a warmup (test drive) available on the race screen so you don't have to go back out and dig into the track list.
What is it with the driving lines? I turn them off pretty quick anyway, but found them, like F2, to be very bad suggestions at best. Are they just that, general suggestions? They sure as hell are not the fastest way around the track! If I followed the lines in some of these cars, I may not wreck but I am going to come out of these turns a lot slower. Just doesn't make sense.
Since I play on a projector, I won't much comment on the graphics directly. Plenty of it may be my older equipment at this point. Are some of the screens glitching and showing only B&W, or is that just a function of how sterile and sharp the menus and some cars appear?
Only real complaint so far, the AI. I have it set on Hard (is that the top level, someone said there were only 3 AI levels) and other than having to bash my way through, since the AI doesn't care you are inside on the curve and halfway up their body - they just pull over anyway, even with a lesser car I still manage to get to the top for the most part. Hard on equivalent cars in F2 was fairly difficult, this is childs play.
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
Great news
I am glad they have repaired the tracks. Forza and Forza 2 tracks were not good.
How do you feel about the physics?
Some people say it is good some people say it is not so good. I have read your postings and feel you can have a good unbiased opinion on this.
Being very familiar with the GT4 (and fresh off GT PSP) versions of those tracks, I can say that the tracks are almost exactly identical, and so very likely accurately modelled versus the real thing. Particularly the Nurburgring is almost uncannily the same in both versions. The shadow/light effects when driving on the track in Forza 3 can be a bit tiring at first though, as it causes cars and track in front of you to be almost like a disco, but you get used to that quickly and last time I drove on it in a multi-player race I barely noticed it anymore. I think you'll be perfectly happy with the Ring in Forza 3! I know how badly Turn10 messed it up in previous versions, but this time they got it right (I've driven on the real thing too and both games match up
As for Le Mans, the first chicane feels tighter than it is in GT4, but I don't know if that reflects the track more accurately or whether there have been slight changes in the real track since then, but that's really the only difference I noticed. The rest of the track is 100% identical to the GT4 version.
And this is a general rule for all tracks in Forza 3 that also appear in GT4 - Laguna Seca, Suzuka, Tsukuba, Motegi, they're all just about exactly the same and I could drive on them competitively almost instantly thanks to my experience with the GT series.
@Robert: cool impressions from the real life comparison, thanks! I always like reading about that.
I am glad they have repaired the tracks. Forza and Forza 2 tracks were not good.
How do you feel about the physics?
Some people say it is good some people say it is not so good. I have read your postings and feel you can have a good unbiased opinion on this.
Who has said the physics are not so good? Link?
You wouldn't be referring to the posters (not Arwin) in this thread who posted such silly stuff like, "Forza 3 feels like an arcade racer. The only difference is you accelerate and brake slower." Or the other poster, "All the cars feel the same." Hello folks--turn off the assists
For the subjective element you could ask folks who have said cars and have them relate their experience on the real (or similar) tracks/driving conditions. But that is pretty subjective, if even honest (and accurate). Head-to-Head between the real cars (video) next to gameplay. You can to simple scenarios (oversteer, understeer, etc) and compare the results to real life counterparts. Obviously checking some real life scenarios (e.g. drag times, coarse times, etc).
But one thing I wouldn't do, and I already see this creeping into some posts, is use other games as a baseline for accuracy unless that version has been tested exhaustively to not only be accurate in overall end result, but also is simulating to the same degree (e.g. tire deformation). In some ways, if you are modelling fewer variables, it can be easier to get a good result (time) if the player plays by the rules (follows the lines, doesn't do anything unexpected to cause exploits, good or bad, in the driving model).
The complexity of the high end sims (Forza seems to have made the leap up there with the better PC games) is that there are a lot of factors to weigh. Based on reading around from sim heads every sim has some short comings, but just importantly has the short coming been incorporated into the product package as to not to negatively impact the end result driving model? e.g. If you are not doing tire deformation, have you still found ways to model your driving model to feel as if it is replicating the real experience--even if every nuance isn't modeled or simulated?
I note this because depending on what gripe you want to take you could really nail either side (i.e. right driving model feel vs. proper simulation of specific elements). Obviously track design comes into this factor as well (e.g. you could have a great FPS in terms of gunplay but levels that fail to draw out the great design).
This all said, I have not read a single sim head review that has said the simulation driving model in Forza Motorsport 3 is, "not so good".
In all my reading on FM3 I have never, ever read anything resembling this claim from any serious, objective sim head when relating the simulation and physics modeling to what is currently the "upper bar" of racing sims.
Curious where you read that.
While I haven't studied them in very precise detail yet, they are good. I think at this point if there is any weakness at all, it's in how the physics are communicated. There are a bunch of effects that I can tell are being simulated from studying the behavior of the car, but the force feedback or visual cues lack to communicate them. Most obvious example is when you are driving in cockpit view, a car can lean over as you are taking a heavy turn and the gravity shifts. You can turn on the (excellent) physics readouts on the tires and springs to see things like camber and shifting pressure change, but the cockpit stays perfectly level versus the horizon, and it's not as clearly communicated through the wheel's force feedback either. Now while the latter could be realistic, especially in an assisted wheel, it's still a missed opportunity to communicate what otherwise would have been communicated by gravitational forces on your own body.
In general I would say they are good enough. There are definitely some highs and lows, and like I said, and as Joshua suggests, I want and probably am going to do some tests. Right now all the cars for instance drive like they have been set up incredibly rigid, with tough springs, high pressured tires, etc. But then for racing most surfaces, they would and should be, so that could be one reason. However, a new car comes straight from the dealer, so strictly speaking I feel it should be up to you to make the car more suitable for racing by setting it up, if you want to. But it could also be that this is part of the physics model. I can't make this out until I've experimented with setting up the car myself, testing various extremes.
Most important is, I think, that the cars feel fun to drive, and are difficult enough to challenge you on the hardest difficulty with assists off. Furthermore, the physics is realistic enough to force you to drive realistic lines on the tracks. Importantly, there are very few faults that really take you out of it - the only one that bothers me right now is that going off-track has nothing to do with realism whatsoever. Instead, it takes the place of penalties and other anti-cheating devices, in that off-track will invariably slow you down, and in extreme cases will act like a super powerful magnet that can bring your car to a near full stop instantly.
While you stay on the track, however, the feeling is pretty good, and so far driving with friends online (always just serious racing so far, haven't tried any of the other modes) has been satisfying. I haven't been winning much, but I recently discovered I was actually the only one who kept both TCS and ABS off, and I still mananaged to keep up reasonably well on the tracks that I knew from other games.
(to be fair, I drove on Road Atlanta and Road America in the old GTR mods and such, but I've had to basically relearn those tracks now, forgotten too much about them, and there were already 100 truly different tracks available for those mods then ... !)Forza 3 is the first Forza that I actually enjoy driving, and from where you are coming from, I think I can safely recommend it to you as well.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Most likely a generalized/averaged best line. Different cars with different setups will require slightly different lines.
Just read up above about RobertR1's experience with the 2002 Corvette. How you have to approach corners differently than you would expect, and how it matches up almost perfectly with his real life experiences with his own car.
Switch to a different type of car, and if you tried to follow his lines in the Corvette, you'd probably not do well.
Regards,
SB
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
Thank you very much my friend
You have answered more questions than I have asked. Lack of in communications (like view changes/force feedback) is a little disappointing but I am glad the driving physics is great.
One thing very disappointing for me about GT4 was that there was no in-car view.
You have answered more questions than I have asked. Lack of in communications (like view changes/force feedback) is a little disappointing but I am glad the driving physics is great.
One thing very disappointing for me about GT4 was that there was no in-car view.
Because I care SO much about this game, I'm posting this
http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/games/offers/033f0003-0000-4000-8000-00004d53084d?cid=SLink
Not much to look at but it's something different -> blue sky with some clouds and a mountain range in the distance (all hazy). Race flag checkerboard is translucent across the sky with the FIII logo in the center.