2007: 120Hz, Deep Color, Extreme CR and 1080p

[Gubbi]

Understood, it is that is what I think of as burn-in and that is quite permanent though, so when I heard about the issue with plasmas before getting my first one it had me particularly worried and only much later did I come to realize that the image retention plasmas are susceptible to isn't nearly such a cause for concern.

Well, if you have a (bright) static image on a new plasma for an extended amount of time you'd get varying wear on the phosphors and could get a permanent image "burnt in". I've seen this on exebitions-models that always run the same channel (ie. MTV), change the channel and a very clear inverted "MTV" is visible.

However, I completely agree with you that the problem is way overemphasized using my telly primarily for gaming, with many games having static HUDs (Oblivion, Crackdown, Forza 2 etc), and I have had zero image retention issues.

Cheers

 

[dizietsma]

Getting back on topic

The Toshiba Regza Z models also look good

http://www.home-entertainment.toshiba.co.uk/consumer/products.nsf/pages/lcdplasma?opendocument

No 40 inch so the 37inch would be in my price range

http://www.home-entertainment.toshi.../pages/lcdplasma-regzaz-37z3030d?opendocument

 

[Verge]

back on topic...


darkchip4... hooray

 

[Geo]

I'm starting to see a lot of advertizing for 120Hz TVs now in the Sunday papers. Anyone actually seen one of these beasties with their own eyes to comment on the worthwhileness of this feature?

And that distance graph above was pretty dismaying. According to that you should sit about 7' away from a 62" 1080p TV to get full appreciation. Yikes.

 

[rendezvous]

120 Hz, thumbs up.

I'm starting to see a lot of advertizing for 120Hz TVs now in the Sunday papers. Anyone actually seen one of these beasties with their own eyes to comment on the worthwhileness of this feature?

I have seen quite a few with side to side comaparisons.
You could clearly see the difference in semi-slow panorations where there was much more detail in the picture on the 120Hz TV.
I have seen others without side by side comparison and I was unable to see that they were 120 Hz TVs.
I can't say that viewing 120 Hz TV:s has ruined the experience when I'm looking at my TV at home so I woldn't call it a killer-feature. 120 Hz is however still on my checklist for my next TV.

If the price difference isn't that great I'd say go for 120 Hz.

 

[mrcorbo]

I'm starting to see a lot of advertizing for 120Hz TVs now in the Sunday papers. Anyone actually seen one of these beasties with their own eyes to comment on the worthwhileness of this feature?

And that distance graph above was pretty dismaying. According to that you should sit about 7' away from a 62" 1080p TV to get full appreciation. Yikes.

This article from BeHardware, while addressing a 100hz display, explains and illustrates the types of improvements that a higher frame rate + good image processing routines can give you.

And yeah, it just goes to show you how misleading some of the marketing is around the necessity of 1080p. A majority of people won't see much improvement with their display size/viewing distance.

 

[Geo]

Now back to reality. If it was good with computer animated sequences, the images with real people are in fact less enjoyable. This floating of characters and new fluidity are quite disturbing, because they aren´t natural. Also, this is no longer a movie type rendering and it’s too real. We realise here that we are actually used to seeing a slightly blurred effect in fast camera movements. We all agreed that we wouldn’t activate the 100 Hz in movies.

That wasn't exactly a confidence builder!

 

[mrcorbo]

That wasn't exactly a confidence builder!

Well, that only applies to that specific implementation. Mostly, I was really impressed with the provided background info and testing methodology used in the article so thought it was worth linking to. Very thorough.

Anyway, you can be sure that as some companies are on their 2nd generation sets with 120Hz (JVC comes to mind) that a lot of progress has been made in their processing engines in the last year.

 

[Pete]

I saw a Sony XBR LCD in a CC a few weeks ago, one of the latest 1080p and 120Hz ones. It was playing what I assumed was a BD, but I couldn't figure out what exactly. BD should mean movie but it looked like a TV show shot with a digital camera: the panning was unnaturally fluid for a movie, as BeHW said (I'm not sure I'd say it's unnatural per se, just that I'm used to a certain amount of blur--more than that produced as an artifact of older LCD HDTVs ). That coupled with the fact that it involved the lead actor from, er, Coupling, made me think it was a TV show. I just Googled him, though, and figured out that I was probably watching a scene from the latest Pirates of the Carribean, so it was in fact a movie and the 120Hz processing was in fact psyching me out. I'd have to watch more to say if it's unnatural, period, or just initially.

That said, I thought an advantage of 120Hz (100Hz for PAL sources) was to eliminate extra processing like 3:2 pulldown and replace it with simple frame doubling/ tripling/ quadrupling. I'm not sure how that'd look, though I imagine it can't be any worse than watching ~30Hz TV sources on 60Hz LCDs. I'm not sure what's the added attraction of 120Hz over an equally amenable multiple like 72Hz, besides bigger being better.

That said, I have 120Hz over 1080p on my checklist for a ~37" LCD, assuming 37" plasmas won't be cheap and available in the future (and I think plasmas advertise not high refresh rates but rather native 24Hz, no?*). Given that I won't be buying anytime soon, though, that might become a standard feature by the time I buy.

* Right, the Kuros tout "3:3 pulldown" for 24fps material (1080p HD/BD movies, what else) at 72Hz.

 

[Gubbi]

That said, I thought an advantage of 120Hz (100Hz for PAL sources) was to eliminate extra processing like 3:2 pulldown and replace it with simple frame doubling/ tripling/ quadrupling. I'm not sure how that'd look, though I imagine it can't be any worse than watching ~30Hz TV sources on 60Hz LCDs. I'm not sure what's the added attraction of 120Hz over an equally amenable multiple like 72Hz, besides bigger being better.

The movie is usually stored on the DVD with a 3:2 pulldown cadence (with repeat flags to only store every field of a frame once). This is transmitted to you panel in a normal telecined fashion. Just about all modern flat panel TVs have cinema modes that assemble the telecined 3:2 pulldown stream back into a 24 fps progressive source. The display panel itself can then be driven with this progressive sequence of images at 24, 48, 72 or 96Hz.

I'd imagine the display panel itself is driven at the higher frequency to lessen blur and false colours (ie. turn pixels off one out of three 72Hz frames), that should help both LCD and plasma panels.

Cheers

 

[Mintmaster]

BD should mean movie but it looked like a TV show shot with a digital camera: the panning was unnaturally fluid for a movie, as BeHW said (I'm not sure I'd say it's unnatural per se, just that I'm used to a certain amount of blur--more than that produced as an artifact of older LCD HDTVs ).

I was making this argument in the console forum. 30fps actually looks better than 60fps when you're going for a high-production-value, cinematic feel in games.

Because digicams record in 60i whereas movies (and even most TV shows) are effectively broadcast at 24p/30p, we associate a cheap feel to the higher framerate. 120Hz technology may be good for eliminating the motion trails of LCDs, but motion interpolation is only really useful on the computer.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Do they make 720p displays that support deep colour, extreme CR and 120Hz?

I'd like to get a smaller (~ 26-30") display that supports those features, but I only see them on 1080p displays, which I'm not really concerned about. I don't have room for a huge tv, and I won't be sitting too far away from it.

 

[pascal]

I think Sony has a D series in europe which has a good 32" HDTV.
See this review: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Sony-KDL32D3000/
I dont know about US.

 

[Mintmaster]

Who knows when we'll see this in production, but check this out:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/hands-on-with-pioneers-extreme-contrast-concept-plasma/

Who needs SED?

 

[pascal]

Who knows when we'll see this in production, but check this out:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/hands-on-with-pioneers-extreme-contrast-concept-plasma/

Who needs SED?

And in the future this plasmas will be very thin too. http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/hands-on-with-the-pioneer-9mm-thick-kuro-plasma/

 

[AlphaWolf]

And in the future this plasmas will be very thin too. http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/hands-on-with-the-pioneer-9mm-thick-kuro-plasma/

um you linked the same article, was that a mistake?

 

[pascal]

um you linked the same article, was that a mistake?

Is not the same article (post). It is another post with a 9mm thick plasma TV.
The dots are hidding the full URL. Click and see.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Is not the same article (post). It is another post with a 9mm thick plasma TV.
The dots are hidding the full URL. Click and see.

Well for whatever reason when I click your link it takes me to exactly the same article. I had to cut and paste to get there.

 

[pascal]

Well. Here is the pic of the Pioneer 9mm thick plasma:

 

[2real4tv]

I seen a tv @ circuit city today(Samsung not sure what model) running POTC @ 120Hz and I was impress by the IQ..hands down the best Ive seen. The only thing is that the blu-ray disk was not formated for 120Hz which was causing a jitter between some of the frames.