2007: 120Hz, Deep Color, Extreme CR and 1080p

[Color me Dan]

Hm, good to know, thanks Gubbi.

Sadly for me a change of plans for the TV... School apparently accepted me in the last minute so instead of working, it's studying for me. I'll be buying a new laptop instead. Oh well, merely a delay...

I will not rest untill i have a HDTV!

 

[kyleb]

For PDPs, the phosphors apparently need to be aged/burned at a similar rate until some point or you risk permanent burn-in on the screen.

That is actually just a myth. Plasma phosphors don't ever get hot enough to actually become burnt, so there unlike CRTs there is no chance of permanent damage on a plasma. Plasma pixels do loose brightness with use age though, so if some area of pixels is used more than others for an extended period of time then they will not be able to light up as bright as others, hence causing image retention. However, the pixels loose brightness quickest at first and slower with time, so simply running different content will balance out the uneven wear and running whatever image caused the rentention with inverted colors can be used to accelerate that process in extreme cases.

 

[AlNom]

We should all petition game developers to have fading huds and/or extremely dark games.

 

[Verge]

That is actually just a myth. Plasma phosphors don't ever get hot enough to actually become burnt, so there unlike CRTs there is no chance of permanent damage on a plasma. Plasma pixels do loose brightness with use age though, so if some area of pixels is used more than others for an extended period of time then they will not be able to light up as bright as others, hence causing image retention. However, the pixels loose brightness quickest at first and slower with time, so simply running different content will balance out the uneven wear and running whatever image caused the rentention with inverted colors can be used to accelerate that process in extreme cases.

plasma's don't burn in...


then you go on to describe "burn in".... i'm not understanding this post at all

 

[kyleb]

I described image retention. Burn-in is when the electron gun of a CRT display heats it's phosphor layer to the point which it becomes physically burnt, hence leaving a permanent scar on the display in the shape of whatever part of the image was bright enough for long enough to actually burn it. Again, plasmas don't suffer that issue, they simply get image retention. Unlike burn-in, image retention isn't permanent at all, rather it is simple to correct as I explained above.

 

[MfA]

Image retention is nice and descriptive, but it's not a good replacement for burn in. Most people will understand burn in as the permanent image dependent degradation of pixels, where as image retention can just as well occur as a transient effect (charge build up for instance). If you really wanted to get rid of the term burn in you would have to replace it with something like "permanent image retention" if you wanted to be unambiguous.

I don't see the point though, it's not like there is literal burning of phosphors in CRTs either (ablation or decomposition maybe, but not burning). To me it seems like a marketing trick to replace a harsh term with a more vague one ...

 

[pascal]

Image retention and screen burn are two different things. See this link: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/2007/03/27/plasma-screen-burn/

Image retention is related to charge acumulation.
Screen burn is related to uneven phosphor aging.

 

[Graham]

I wonder why they need the "run in". Great find on the TV btw, looks awesome.

I wasn't so sure on this myself.

I think what is happening, is that the monitor overdrives the pixels during colour change - to try and boost the response time. I've found that if I run the TV on the VGA input, it ghosts quite noticeably. I'm starting to think it has to warm up to become effective, and the night I plugged it in it was *very* cold. It seems less effective when changing from totally black to brighter shades.
Certain (rare) colour combinations don't transition that well either, and cause a ghost in a 3rd intermediate colour. But once again, this reduces as it warms up.

In that regard, I'm not 100% satisfied, but I'm stupidly picky on these things. But in all other respects it's a flatout fantastic TV. For the money I don't think I could beat it.

I've found it seems to feel better at 60hz, instead of the NZ standard 50hz too. Not so much smoother, but less jittery.

At the end of the day, it's a *better* TV for geometry wars than the old CRT. Which is an amazing achievement for an LCD
Ohh and thanks for the thanks When I get the cabinet I'll post a decent picture of the setup. I'm really quite content, having now spent just as much on the TV as audio


*two comes after one!*

 

[Color me Dan]

NZ is a PAL country right? Good to know that warm up thing btw, I've only heard of warming up plasmas but it sounds reasonable i guess for a LCD to be run in as well.

 

[kyleb]

Image retention is nice and descriptive, but it's not a good replacement for burn in. Most people will understand burn in as the permanent image dependent degradation of pixels, where as image retention can just as well occur as a transient effect (charge build up for instance). If you really wanted to get rid of the term burn in you would have to replace it with something like "permanent image retention" if you wanted to be unambiguous.

The thing is, plasmas don't get permanent image retention, the phospors will wear back to even with usage.

 

[MfA]

Images burn in, you can just try to stack the images which are burned in to even things out ... but it's never complete. If you were to say display a large white square on a black background for a couple of weeks you aren't going to get near to evening that out in a hurry for instance. It will be burned in.

 

[kyleb]

No, not in a hurry, but display that large square in black on a while backround for about the same period of time and you'd be back to even. Normal veiwing would take a whole lot longer to even things out, but unlike burn-in on CRT's the image retention plasmas are susceptible to is not permanent.

 

[MfA]

You could do the same thing with a CRT.

Lets just say we have a different definition of permanent.

 

[kyleb]

That's the thing though, you do that with a CRT and it doesn't just loose brightness like a plasma, but rather it actually becomes discolored. That is permanent damage as unlike image retention on a plasma there is no way to fix burn-in on a CRT.

 

[MfA]

Discoloration just means that some of the color components are dimming relatively faster. If you let say a colored ticker burn in on a plasma the affected area will also be discolored, not just dimmed.

 

[kyleb]

Nah, I 'mean discolored like the screens in the center of this shot here:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1242092&size=L&width=1024&height=695&sok=&photo_nr=

That isn't uneven brightness, the screens aren't even on but you can see where portions of them have been pysically damaged from the heat of displaying high contrast fixed image for excessive periods of time.

 

[MfA]

If you change the chemical composition of the phosphor it's reflectiveness will change, regardless if it's plasma or CRT. It's just that these old tech CRTs were degraded way past what you would put up with as a TV and didn't have modern contrast enhancement technique (black matrix, gray glass) which are standard in even the early plasmas. Even so, if that burn in is even across the screen you will just get contrast reduction (of course they have more contrast to begin with).

 

[kyleb]

Huh, I admin I've not seen a burnt-in CRT in probably over a decade, but I've always been under the impression that such burn-in was more than simply a reduction in contrast in the effected area but rather actual discoloration of that portion of the phosphor layer. The summer camp I went to as a child had a big front projector unit which someone left the FBI warning screen on over night, and over the years that display was used it always showed the burn-in just the same, never fading one bit in the years of usage it got after that.

 

[MfA]

If you could make plasmas with the kind of energy densities as CRT projection tubes they would burn in just as bad just as quickly with just as long lasting effects ... it's not like plasmas are more energy efficient in their light generation, those things get hot. Some CRTs are older and used in much more rugged conditions than plasmas, the way in which those degrade are rather irrelevant to the difference between modern direct view CRT tubes and plasmas IMO.

 

[kyleb]

Understood, it is that is what I think of as burn-in and that is quite permanent though, so when I heard about the issue with plasmas before getting my first one it had me particularly worried and only much later did I come to realize that the image retention plasmas are susceptible to isn't nearly such a cause for concern.