The PS3 browser and net capabilities : Is PS3 getting Android/WebKit support?

[London Geezer]

Mozilla is a not-for-profit organisation

Not-for-profit doesn't mean that Mozilla gets no money from anywhere!!
They still have to pay their employees, their development resources, and all sorts of costs that they incur just by existing. How else would they function if they had no income?

All it means is that the profit they make is practically re-invested in the company to (try to) improve it, and not given to share-holders like other types of companies.

EDIT: oops, didn't see the above post!

 

[patsu]

Web gaming heating up...
http://techcrunch.com/2010/07/10/go...crunch+(TechCrunch)&utm_content=Google+Reader

Google has quietly (secretly, one might say) invested somewhere between $100 million and $200 million in social gaming behemoth Zynga, we’ve confirmed from multiple sources.

The investment was made by Google itself, not Google Ventures, say our sources, and it’s a highly strategic deal. Zynga will be the cornerstone of a new Google Games to launch later this year, say multiple sources. Not only will Zynga’s games give Google Games a solid base of social games to build on, but it will also give Google the beginning of a true social graph as users log into Google to play the games.

My friends and family are right in the middle of the casual gaming war.

 

[findhorn_elves]

yes it sucks just as bad as the PSP browser slow clunck and hard to navigate

 

[Arwin]

Apparently the September firmware update will also include a big update to the browser. While I'm assuming it'll primarily be intended to support Move better for working with it, it will be interesting to see if there are other improvements.

 

[Nesh]

Where did you hear that?

 

[patsu]

I believe it's from a Twitter via GAF. It has not been confirmed by anyone yet.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Sony may need to address a larger issue: How does PS3 and PSP fit into the Internet ?

If they are serious about Internet integration, I think they will have to port a modern browser core to the Playstations. Sony may make PSN-specific policy decisions, but technically they need to be on par with the mainstream.

On the casual gaming front, the world is running away/ahead with web games. SOE is not as visible as it should. To the casuals, the Playstation family is not known to run simple games already on their favorite devices (like AngryBird on iPad/iPhone). Very few Playstation IPs are known to the casuals (e.g., LittleBigPlanet, Ratchet & Clank). The Flash/iPad/phone games are free or low cost too.

On the app front, PS3 is still rather limited. The recent Photo Gallery and Video Editor apps managed to keep PS3 up-to-date (Photo and video upload are 2 of the top surveyed use cases for Internet communities worldwide). It is a welcomed update, but they are not setting any trend here.

I hope the PS3 and PSP(2) become more open (read/write to SMB drives, RemotePlay/Desktop for PCs & Macs, platform neutral video rental, etc.). Some of their IPs should leak to Internet communities in a meaningful way. The Facebook spamming mechanism cannot be relied on.

The PSN+ packaging is a mixed bag. While it fails to articulate values to many consumers, there is some forward thinking network business model there. Unfortunately, (as usual), it's only partially done. Unless they focus and get their act together, they may continue to lag behind user expectation. It's the same old piece-meal approach. Simply giving us a WebKit browser doesn't really move the game forward (It's a great start though).

EDIT: The Google TV move is interesting but again, Sony prices the TV too high. >_<
Someone else will take the initiative and popularize it. I haven't heard any major talk after the initial launch. Should bring the functionality to PS3 instead.

It depends on what Sony wants to achieve. I think if they are gunning for a network media platform, browser tech is pretty strategic (Think Apple bringing iOS and its collection of apps to AppleTV).

They can sidestep the entire browser stack by offering a remote desktop feature though (e.g., project/upscale PC, Mac and iPad screens to HDTV). The Move controller should make large screen TV UI more usable. But this is not the same thing as having the apps running on PS3 itself. I surmise that all the consoles will have a web browser (or web browser platform tech) before we know it.

I believe PS3 firmware 3.5 provided at least part of HTML5 and Javascript for Applications. This would indicate a WEBKIT "modern browser", probably WEBGL is being ported to the PS3 and is partially active.

 

[patsu]

Where did you get that info from ? Have you checked their latest ACID test ?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Apparently the September firmware update will also include a big update to the browser. While I'm assuming it'll primarily be intended to support Move better for working with it, it will be interesting to see if there are other improvements.

Not sure about that. IF Sony is going to have a modern browser it will not be compatible with the older generation Netfront browser. I expect they are porting a WEBGL WEBKIT browser now and new Applications like Netfix from the XMB is using tools like HTML5 and Javascript out of it.

 

[patsu]

Does the Netfront browser have proprietary API for game devs ? If not, any browser that fits into the memory and CPU run-time characteristic should work. There is no serious need to maintain layout compatibility against Netfront. The website developers would prefer HTML5 compatibility instead.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Does the Netfront browser have proprietary API for game devs ? If not, any browser that fits into the memory and CPU run-time characteristic should work. There is no serious need to maintain layout compatibility against Netfront. The website developers would prefer HTML5 compatibility instead.

Slight misunderstanding but that's a good point/question. New WEBKIT browsers and older generation browsers are so different that upgrades using tools out of one for the other are impossible.

As I believe you mentioned in another thread on this forum, the Netflix, MLB and HULU apps from the desktop give us clues as to what's being used, to repost:

These Applications are using routines in PS3 firmware 3.5 which results in smaller sizes for updates after Firmware 3.5.

Hulu app decreased in size 13 megs after the PS3 firmware 3.5 release.
MLB app decreased in size from 16 meg to 7.6 meg
The Netflix application was not released to Canada until after 3.5.


The HULU application states that it is available on other platforms (using the same license) that support ONLY HTML5.
Netflix director of Network development stated that NETFLIX was going to HTML5 and would have a dynamically updatable user interface.

HTML5 contains codecs (already in PS3 firmware before 3.5) to support video streaming as well as Javascript that has hooks to calls in HTML5. Tools in HTML5 can be called by other languages (native Apps), this includes javascript included in modern WEBKITs. Not included in WEBKIT is a DRM. (The reduction in size should not be related to using a HTML5 video codec in the PS3 as the same video stream has been supported by a PS3 Video Codec before 3.5.)

With an understanding of what HTML5 makes possible, the MLB application size of 7.6 megs, the functionality shown in the MLB application, the reduction in size of the applications after 3.5 and the statements in the articles I cite leads to the conclusion that a partially active webkit (probably WEBGL) was in PS3 firmware update 3.5 and is now in the PS3.

It will now be easier to write WEB applications for the PS3. Third party WEB providers can write applications using HTML5 tools and they will be usable on all platforms that support HTML5 with little change; possibly with just a Sony provided wrapper.

Pre 3.5 the Sony wrapper probably contained Sony provided HTML5 like code custom written and/or ported from existing open source libraries.

Example:

Sony provided wrapper for applications on XMB written in C+
HTML5 code/calls provided by HULU or Netflix. This code can be used unchanged by ALL platforms; probably uses Javascript See below:
Custom PS3 routines to support HTML5 pre 3.5. This disappears as routines are supported by PS3 firmware
End wrapper

In addition, incorporated in HTML5 and new WEBKITs is the ability to download javascript code and save to a protected file on the hardware platform (in this case the PS3 Hard Disk). This allows dynamic updating and on-the-fly User Interface changes. The MLB application at 7.6 megs must use this feature. Netflix's "dynamically updateable" user interface must use this feature also.

 

[patsu]

Slight misunderstanding but that's a good point/question. New WEBKIT browsers and older generation browsers are so different that upgrades using tools out of one for the other are impossible.

Possible, but as far as I know, the web browser integration in existing PS3 games are all very simple. That's what I'm trying to confirm. Do existing games call the web browser via a synchronous API ? From outside, it seems that they simply launch the browser in a separate window. Most of the time, they don't need to wait for any result from the browser. The games could also query the web server via web services for the changed state.

For the same simple HTML layout, if the new browser takes up the same amount of memory and CPU cycles, then it should be transparent to the calling apps. Most of the layouts I have seen are very simple because the current web browser has limited memory to play with in-game. Otherwise, I agree with you they will need to keep the browsers separate to prevent compatibility issues -- assuming there is indeed a HTML5 engine in firmware 3.50.

EDIT: The reduction in app size may be attributed to OS improvements in other areas too. We need more evidence to know if HTML5 is indeed in play.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Otherwise, I agree with you they will need to keep the browsers separate to prevent compatibility issues -- assuming there is indeed a HTML5 engine in firmware 3.50.

EDIT: The reduction in app size may be attributed to OS improvements in other areas too. We need more evidence to know if HTML5 is indeed in play.

For all apps?

Some assumptions:

1) Dynamically updating the application is probably a standard. You want the minimum size, just the core tools in your released application. The user will download the real application which will be javascript based the first time he connects. (a 7 meg file can be opened on the Hard Disk, IE supports 10 megs)

2) The MLB application will probably not need DRM but the Netflix and HULU applications will require DRM. That may be included with those applications.

Ultraviolet Universal DRM is supported by Sony but it requires a compliant DRM like Adobe Access for the tools to provide DRM. So Netflix can use Playready DRM on their server and the PS3 can use the tools out of Flash (Access) and Ultraviolet to provide DRM.

It follows that the MLB application should be smaller. The size of the post 3.5 versions of Hulu and Netflix should be similar. This is again as expected.

Access and/or Ultraviolet may not be in the PS3 at this time. The HULU and Netflix applications may get a reduction in size when this occurs.

This still does not confirm HTML5 but everything is as it should be with HTML5. Perhaps the best course is to call and ask Netflix or HULU what the PS3 is using.

All this can be done with unique code for every hardware platform or it can be written once for all platforms using WEBKIT tools. So it follows that the reduction in code size for ALL PS3 WEB applications from separate companies like HULU and Netflix, which are supporting multiple platforms with HTML5, due to PS3 firmware 3.5 should be the result of HTML5 tools in PS3 firmware.

 

[patsu]

Perhaps the best course is to call and ask Netflix or HULU what the PS3 is using.

May be DF will do it one day (when Microsoft reveal their HTML5 browser or engine). Would be a good time to kick some Sony butt.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Possible, but as far as I know, the web browser integration in existing PS3 games are all very simple. That's what I'm trying to confirm. Do existing games call the web browser via a synchronous API ? From outside, it seems that they simply launch the browser in a separate window. Most of the time, they don't need to wait for any result from the browser. The games could also query the web server via web services for the changed state.

For the same simple HTML layout, if the new browser takes up the same amount of memory and CPU cycles, then it should be transparent to the calling apps. Most of the layouts I have seen are very simple because the current web browser has limited memory to play with in-game. Otherwise, I agree with you they will need to keep the browsers separate to prevent compatibility issues -- assuming there is indeed a HTML5 engine in firmware 3.50.

EDIT: The reduction in app size may be attributed to OS improvements in other areas too. We need more evidence to know if HTML5 is indeed in play.

Web browser integration in existing games due to memory constraints is probably NOT using the Netfront browser. I don't think it was designed to be called from within anything other than it'self.

The Home Xi browser is served, it's not a browser running in the PS3. GT5 may have a local browser and it's release date timing may coincide with the WEBKIT browser I believe is a work in progress and is now partially active.

RE: Reducing the size of applications in fast memory; OpenGL video routines are in memory when a game is active. WEBGL javascript and HTML5 can use direct OpenGL calls eliminating a duplicate layer of code reducing memory used. WEBKIT browsers would lend themselves to a smaller memory footprint as only needed routines need be loaded into memory; those would be determined by the game developer.

 

[Arwin]

Web browser integration in existing games due to memory constraints is probably NOT using the Netfront browser. I don't think it was designed to be called from within anything other than it'self.

I think everything is the same browser. I even have the same bookmarks, options, settings. I even think I remember this being explained as being the same browser, but with a 32MB memory limitation and one page restriction.

The Netfront browser is also designed for phones and such, so it should not be a big surprise. It's just not very good compared to the competition today. Back when the PS3 was designed (2004/2005), WebKit wasn't such a clear choice yet.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I think everything is the same browser. I even have the same bookmarks, options, settings. I even think I remember this being explained as being the same browser, but with a 32MB memory limitation and one page restriction.

The Netfront browser is also designed for phones and such, so it should not be a big surprise. It's just not very good compared to the competition today. Back when the PS3 was designed (2004/2005), WebKit wasn't such a clear choice yet.

RE: The Home browser; In Xi remember that you had to stand in line to use the Web browser feature and many time you'd get "server busy". If the PS3 were using a local browser in the PS3 rather than being served, overhead by the server would be MUCH less and lines would be unnecessary.

So there are two versions of Netfront or it was designed with hooks to be called by a game. Integrating it into a game wouldn't be an easy task unless it was built to do that from the beginning.

I haven't seen/played any games with browsers besides Home's Xi and if you remember the same browser options as Netfront's then I stand corrected.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

RE: Reducing the size of applications in fast memory; OpenGL video routines are in memory when a game is active.

Are they? Where does this info come from?

 

[Arwin]

RE: The Home browser; In Xi remember that you had to stand in line to use the Web browser feature and many time you'd get "server busy". If the PS3 were using a local browser in the PS3 rather than being served, overhead by the server would be MUCH less and lines would be unnecessary.

So there are two versions of Netfront or it was designed with hooks to be called by a game. Integrating it into a game wouldn't be an easy task unless it was built to do that from the beginning.

I haven't seen/played any games with browsers besides Home's Xi and if you remember the same browser options as Netfront's then I stand corrected.

There are a lot of times that you can go to a browser in Home even, and many of those are most definitely the same browser that you get in the XMB. If you look at a poster for an ad for instance, sometimes they also link to a website on that game or product. Same for movies in the cinema, which often have links to the site for that movie. There was a Transformers ad that had a link to a few (very primitive and slow) browser flash games that unlocked codes that you could then unlock home items with.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Are they? Where does this info come from?

The PS3 uses OpenGL ES routines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL_ES

OpenGL ES 1.0
Official 3D Graphics API in both Symbian OS[3] and the Android platform[4]
Supported by the PlayStation 3 as one of official graphics APIs [5] (the other one being low level libgcm library). The PlayStation 3 also includes several features of OpenGL ES 2.0
OpenGL ES 1.1
Supported by Android 1.6
Supported by the iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad
Supported by the BlackBerry 5.0 operating system series[6]. However, only the BlackBerry Storm 2, BlackBerry Curve 8530 and later models have the necessary hardware[7]
Supported for Palm webOS, using the Plug-in Development Kit [8]
OpenGL ES 2.0
Supported by the iPhone (3GS or later), iPod Touch (3rd generation and later) and iPad
Supported by the Android platform since Android 2.2 [9]
Supported by the Android platform NDK since Android 2.0 [10]
3D Library of the Pandora console
Chosen for WebGL (OpenGL for browsers)[11]
Supported by some new Nokia mobile phones, such as the Maemo based Nokia N900[12] and the Symbian^3 based Nokia N8.
Supported by various Samsung mobile phones, including the Galaxy S and Wave
Supported for Palm webOS, using the Plug-in Development Kit [13]

This would make porting a WEBGL browser to the PS3 relatively easy. For Google WEBGL webkits the javascript V8 engine would be the hardest to port to a Cell (PS3). That may be done and in the PS3 now. That's the current discussion, how to prove?