Oh shit..
LAIR Thread - * Rules: post #469
- Thread starter Eagle-Vision
- Start date
- Status
There's alot of people who know their stuff on B3D. It's nice to have one as pessimistic as Laa-Yosh. His critique is always welcome, as you know he's not going to glaze over flaws simply because there is any conceivable excuse for them. The shadows for instance: How many people appreciate them in an action game? Don't matter. They dude works with CG and that level of quality is what most games are aiming for. And now that they are getting closer to CG-quality, it's more useful than ever to have a vocal, bah-humbug poster with a critical eye hanging around.
That mock up schlock job Laa-Yosh posted earlier was way helpful to me. I can't think of any other way to more thouroughly explain Lair's shortcommings. If LY had simply decided to cut the game some slack because so many we're looking forward to it, then I would not see it the way I do now. In fact, I think I've gained a bit of perspective on every game I veiw from that little excercise.
Rain on my parade any time you like, Laa-Yosh!
He's a modeler. We can't critique his work in game.
Don't think I've ever been quoted so much! A new record.
But anyway, I thought I clarified that I just meant that I thought Laa-Yosh was being overly pessimistic. I mean the only thing I've seen him do for this game was scrutinize the shadows/lighting etc. If he doesn't like the game thats fine, but so much negativity makes people who are exciting about the game feel less and less excited and that's not a good feeling.
I also like to see people questioning things and offering up different POVs, but I think every person should be balanced in how they present it. I don't see much of that here.
As for critiquing Laa-Yosh's work well......that was a hollow threat I did look at the site and while I don't know which work was actually done by Laa-Yosh, it all looked impressive. But I'm no expert obviously.
Anyway, I think that can drop, I do see the validity in the statement but I also think that it could very likely be the engine's LOD.
But anyway, I thought I clarified that I just meant that I thought Laa-Yosh was being overly pessimistic. I mean the only thing I've seen him do for this game was scrutinize the shadows/lighting etc. If he doesn't like the game thats fine, but so much negativity makes people who are exciting about the game feel less and less excited and that's not a good feeling.
I also like to see people questioning things and offering up different POVs, but I think every person should be balanced in how they present it. I don't see much of that here.
As for critiquing Laa-Yosh's work well......that was a hollow threat
I did look at the site and while I don't know which work was actually done by Laa-Yosh, it all looked impressive. But I'm no expert obviously.Anyway, I think that can drop, I do see the validity in the statement but I also think that it could very likely be the engine's LOD.
Rainbow Man
Veteran
Oh that's too bad. Coz it would have been cool to have talked to someone who worked on DoW. Best RTS since TA in my own opinion.
Never seen mark of chaos though. Fantasy WH doesn't appeal to me.
You can find games released yesterday that does smoke and fire effects exactly the same way because ALL games do them the same way. By stacking flat textures close together.
Oh god. It should do better how? PS3 doesn' have magic spells to its disposal to draw graphics. It has to work with polygons and textures lke all other modern hardware.
Real volumetric smoke isn't achievable today.
Yes Sony and Factor5 brags a lot. Nobody forces you to listen. I certainly don't!
Whenever I see that Julian Eggwhatever speaking I look the other way. I do the same with Kutaragi or any opther PR head ffrom sony microsoft or nintendo valve epic etc etc.I do read what George Broussard writes though because he's a funny big-mouthed kind of guy. Though most of what he's written has mostly been funny when seen retrospectively.
Peace.
Last edited by a moderator:
If you want cheerleading, there are other gaming websites that accomplish that. The nice thing about this site is that, generally speaking, you'll find more reasonable discourse. Though over the past few months I've seen a notable rise in the "OMG AWESOME" posts that don't advance the discussion of anything much, other than to make others who are excited about something become more excited. That kind of echo chamber is boring, to be honest.
Technique doesn't matter. Results do. Whether or not Lost Planet and Heavenly Sword are using the same techniques for fire and smoke as Lair, they look a zillion times better. Hell, there were PS2 games with more convincing fire and smoke than shown here.
You know, I just KNEW someone was going to respond with something like that as soon as I finished typing that sentence.....
I don't want cheerleading, I want something balanced. It's not always going to happen and maybe I may even break that rule time to time but that remains my wish. The first and only thing Laa-Yosh said was "Er, where are the shadows" as soon as that screenshot was posted.
It isn't hard to elaborate on such a comment. Why does someone like me come in here and explain the obvious that there might be LOD problems or something to that effect?
There's already several posts with Laa-Yosh explaining why he doesn't like the lighting, art direction etc. and to complain about the shadows seems reduntant.
I don't even know where I'm going with this anymore. Should just drop it and move on. I really don't care that much.
I don't want cheerleading, I want something balanced. It's not always going to happen and maybe I may even break that rule time to time but that remains my wish. The first and only thing Laa-Yosh said was "Er, where are the shadows" as soon as that screenshot was posted.
It isn't hard to elaborate on such a comment. Why does someone like me come in here and explain the obvious that there might be LOD problems or something to that effect?
There's already several posts with Laa-Yosh explaining why he doesn't like the lighting, art direction etc. and to complain about the shadows seems reduntant.
I don't even know where I'm going with this anymore. Should just drop it and move on. I really don't care that much.
Well, argue the plus points. Raise what's good about Lair rather than trying to excuse what's bad. As mentioned before, the water's great, as is the parallax. To me though, there's very little else to commend. This is as balanced as it gets from me! I can't claim to be impressed by things I'm not impressed by. If you want to contribute some more balancing, positive opinions, you'll have to do that yourself rather than ask the likes of me for that!
I think he was responding to my post mentioning the cheerleading part. Not sure why the expectation is that all negative points need to get balanced with positive ones.
Well after all these disagreements wether the game looks awesome or not, I ll pass them all and say that atleast the last screenshot looks much better and kind of impressive.
What I like in that last screen that the other screens didnt have are:
1) The lighting seems improved and more varied than last time where it gave the impression that there was just one light source
2)There is an incredible draw distance with many objects on screen movable and not
3)I see clouds and this time they look similar to the great looking ones found in Warhawk
4)The water effects arent just "shiny". The sky and sun colors seem to be reflected in the sea, unlike the last time where the water only had the "ripple" "moist" and "watery" effects.
I see no reason why we should talk about self shadowing casted by objects as everythng is viewed from a huge distance, and its pointless to discuss something that is so small and almost invisible. Unless we are closer to the objects. Then shadows play an important role.
Ofcourse this pic is specifically choosen to show off so it could not be trully representative of the improvements I notice. they simply might not be there
What I like in that last screen that the other screens didnt have are:
1) The lighting seems improved and more varied than last time where it gave the impression that there was just one light source
2)There is an incredible draw distance with many objects on screen movable and not
3)I see clouds and this time they look similar to the great looking ones found in Warhawk
4)The water effects arent just "shiny". The sky and sun colors seem to be reflected in the sea, unlike the last time where the water only had the "ripple" "moist" and "watery" effects.
I see no reason why we should talk about self shadowing casted by objects as everythng is viewed from a huge distance, and its pointless to discuss something that is so small and almost invisible. Unless we are closer to the objects. Then shadows play an important role.
Ofcourse this pic is specifically choosen to show off so it could not be trully representative of the improvements I notice. they simply might not be there
The trouble is that it's not that simple. Some games even manage to do some fake volumetrics by using several different textures within the same particle system, or more complex textures. See the examples linked in here for a start. It can be done better, it's been done better for ages, there's no excuse for such a bad looking effect - especially if they promote it as the second coming.
the smokes might not look as convincing as those in Lost planet, well first thing is that LP's smoke is exceptionally well done for any nextgen titles. also u might wanna think with ALL THOSE details cranked up in that screen, u should actually feel grateful to have any sort of volumetric smokes fake or not displayed. as good looking as LP in some of big battle scenes, it's still nowhere near that grand scale as in that pic. i mean someone can create the most wicked sick smoke in the world in a game with the scale of Doom3 if u get where i goin to. besides, there's still chance the final game would improve upon it alittle.
Eagle-Vision
Regular
archangelmorph
Veteran
I actually agree with what you're saying here..
But then the game has so far never been promoted as "the second coming" in any other area besides the technical systems being developed for it..
What the game REALLY needs is probably a new art director.. Or a more experieced/stringient one at that...
To me it seems like many of the visual problems with the title are the product of bad artistic decisions and not any lack of technological solution thereof (if PS2 games can push less power and still look atmospherically beautiful then I agree that LAIR really has no excuse...)
- Status
Similar threads
