New Playstation Plus Subscription Tiers [2022-03-29]

[Deleted member 11852]

Most if not all 3D games upscale great.

This is definitely not my experience. Both DuckStation and RetroArch - pretty much the most well-supported cross-platform emulator - are good for 2X internal upscale, everything else is done in post-process. DuckStation offers a 3X and above but I cannot get much to work without severe artefacts. If you stick to the 2X boost and texture filtering you're good but @orangpelupa is looking for a genuine 1080p/4K 3D render.

Emulators that actually emulate the PS1 at internally upscaled resolutions more than 2X and don't introduce a bunch of artefacts in a ton of games seemingly do not exist. The moment you're running Gran Turismo, Tomb Raider, Wiperout, Crash, Resident Evil, Metal Gear, Driver, FFVII, the visuals start falling apart. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm not running exotic hardware here, dual-3080s and an i9. Stock emulator installs and no amount of tweaking emulator/core settings as helped. Just googling "emulator upscaling ps1 games" gets a bunch of google and YouTube tutorial hits. it's a common enough ask to have a ton of hits but most tutorials just recommend 2X, texture filtering and post-process upscales. But N64 and Sega Saturn emulators upscale really well.

 

[Nesh]

In addition to the bonkers back charge in order for owners in Asia to use the new upgraded PS+ subscription tiers if you had gotten your former PS+ subscription due to discounts, apparently there's only around 260 titles available instead of the 500+ that they are advertising.

Thankfully, due to that being made public Sony might possibly be backtracking on it. Alternatively they may only do the right thing if a user complains to them.

Sony Appears to Backtrack on Bonkers PS Plus Discount Scandal - Push Square

Users are still generally satisified with the service but they are disappointed by the false advertising WRT the Asia region.

Seems strange to me that they would discriminate against the Asian region.

Regards,
SB

It seems that what they adverdise is the amount of games that eventually will be available.

 

[Nesh]

This is definitely not my experience. Both DuckStation and RetroArch - pretty much the most well-supported cross-platform emulator - are good for 2X internal upscale, everything else is done in post-process. DuckStation offers a 3X and above but I cannot get much to work without severe artefacts. If you stick to the 2X boost and texture filtering you're good but @orangpelupa is looking for a genuine 1080p/4K 3D render.

Emulators that actually emulate the PS1 at internally upscaled resolutions more than 2X and don't introduce a bunch of artefacts in a ton of games seemingly do not exist. The moment you're running Gran Turismo, Tomb Raider, Wiperout, Crash, Resident Evil, Metal Gear, Driver, FFVII, the visuals start falling apart. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm not running exotic hardware here, dual-3080s and an i9. Stock emulator installs and no amount of tweaking emulator/core settings as helped. Just googling "emulator upscaling ps1 games" gets a bunch of google and YouTube tutorial hits. it's a common enough ask to have a ton of hits but most tutorials just recommend 2X, texture filtering and post-process upscales. But N64 and Sega Saturn emulators upscale really well.

I havent used an emulator for PS1 games in ages, but I remember playing them at much better resolutions, filtering and framerates when Bleem! was the thing. They could give us some enhancements at least

 

[orangpelupa]

@orangpelupa is looking for a genuine 1080p/4K 3D render.

sorry, i was unclear. i meant doesn't need to be precise 4K. but whichever resolution being rendered is closest to 4K.
then they can scale it to proper 4k. instead of rendering at the game's native original resolution and then scaling that to 4k.

my experience with emulators mirrors @Reynaldo 's
dunno why it gives visual errors for you.

EDIT: this is 4k rendered on xbox series s

Spoiler

 

[Shifty Geezer]

My experience, though somewhat limiited, is the same as Reynaldo's and orangpelupa. Emulators for PS render at an actual higher framebuffer resolution with perfect triangle upscaling, but bitmap/pixel upscaling followed by post-processing as you get for 2D emulators like MAME.

We can compare solutions via PS3's upscaling. One of these is from PS3 using post-process upscaling, and the other is on emulator on PC with higher internal res.

https://imgur.com/FUCCjbo

https://imgur.com/4qsqev1

There's a clear difference between triangle quality and bitmap quality, whether fonts or textures, where these are having to be upscaled.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Apparently the Plus upgrade thing was a bug and they fixed.

 

[Reynaldo]

Apparently the Plus upgrade thing was a bug and they fixed.

Yeah... a bug.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I havent used an emulator for PS1 games in ages, but I remember playing them at much better resolutions, filtering and framerates when Bleem! was the thing. They could give us some enhancements at least

Of course you, but you're tremendously old and Bleem was 20 bloody years ago! You're probably remembering, with some rose-tinted-optics, how mid-90s PS1 games looks like on 90/2000s PCs. You're remembering that they did (and still do) look better than an actual original PlayStation - because it would be hard for anything to look worse!

But it terms of getting nice crisp polygons and lines, I've yet to see it.

 

[Reynaldo]

Of course you, but you're tremendously old and Bleem was 20 bloody years ago! You're probably remembering, with some rose-tinted-optics, how mid-90s PS1 games looks like on 90/2000s PCs. You're remembering that they did (and still do) look better than an actual original PlayStation - because it would be hard for anything to look worse!

But it terms of getting nice crisp polygons and lines, I've yet to see it.

Well, nobody's saying they look better than on an actual PSOne, just that the enhancements and upres are possible and work good. I've since tried both Bushido Blades, Tobal 1 and 2, Warhawk and Twisted Metal 1 and 2, Soul Blade, and rendering at higher res work without issues. Whether it looks better or not than native is subjective.

 

[orangpelupa]

But it terms of getting nice crisp polygons and lines, I've yet to see it.

I'm really curious. Can you share a screenshot of a 3d ps1 game running at 4k with duckstation, or any retroarch core that supports high resolution rendering?

I literally cannot make the 3d to not have crisp polygons when I render games at 4k. (see my photo of xenogears running on xbox series s a few posts above)

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I'm really curious. Can you share a screenshot of a 3d ps1 game running at 4k with duckstation, or any retroarch core that supports high resolution rendering?

I can when I get home, I'm travelling with only a Mac at the moment and there isn't a version for the Mac.. yet!

But in terms of your pics above, the edges on individual polygons look smoothed or filtered in some other way although I can only see the 640x480 versions.

 

[Reynaldo]

I can when I get home, I'm travelling with only a Mac at the moment and there isn't a version for the Mac.. yet!

But in terms of your pics above, the edges on individual polygons look smoothed or filtered in some other way although I can only see the 640x480 versions.

Are those sharp enough for you?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Are those sharp enough for you?

Sure, but like I said above some games work, and many exhibit artefacts in motion. I'll just re-post what I wrote again.

Emulators that actually emulate the PS1 at internally upscaled resolutions more than 2X and don't introduce a bunch of artefacts in a ton of games seemingly do not exist. The moment you're running Gran Turismo, Tomb Raider, Wiperout, Crash, Resident Evil, Metal Gear, Driver, FFVII, the visuals start falling apart. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And if you look at DuckStation's explanation for the internal resolution settings it reads:

Keep pressing it and DuckStation will continue to jump in resolution: 2x, 3x, 4x, etc. “3x” is equivalent to 720p. If you have a fast computer, you'd probably be able to handle “5x” (1080p) or “9x” (4K). To go back to a resolution, press the Page Down key.​

This suggests to me that some kind of brute-force approach based on the target resolution is being done. Ergo, there isn't an easy way for emulators to adjust the internal resolution the same way that emulators playing N64 and Sega Saturn games can.

 

[Reynaldo]

Sure, but like I said above some games work, and many exhibit artefacts in motion. I'll just re-post what I wrote again.



And if you look at DuckStation's explanation for the internal resolution settings it reads:

Keep pressing it and DuckStation will continue to jump in resolution: 2x, 3x, 4x, etc. “3x” is equivalent to 720p. If you have a fast computer, you'd probably be able to handle “5x” (1080p) or “9x” (4K). To go back to a resolution, press the Page Down key.​

This suggests to me that some kind of brute-force approach based on the target resolution is being done. Ergo, there isn't an easy way for emulators to adjust the internal resolution the same way that emulators playing N64 and Sega Saturn games can.

I’m sorry but why is selecting a resolution instead of a multiplier “easier” and not “brute forcing”? You’re just being pedantic for the sake of it. Fact is rendering higher res PS1 games in emulators has been possible for 20 years give or take. Cannot tell if many games have artifacts in motion since the ones I’ve tested work fine, and other users right it this forum have had the same experience as me.

BTW just found out via elanalistadebits that Psone classic are rendering at 1440p on ps5. So don’t know that this is all about, games are indeed rendering at 6 times the native resolution from psone.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This conversation is getting kinda silly. Don't understand DSoup dragging his feet here. Check out this video with FIFA 98...

At PS1 res, the limbs are clusters of ever-changing pixels. At 4K, they are perfect triangles. This is clearly not upscaling as there's not enough info from a few different coloured pixels to derive the triangles that made them (outside of sophisticated specialist machine learning). Later in the video you see Colin McCrae. The trees are a shimmering mess of pixels at PS1 res, but stable billboards at 4K. You can't upscale from juddery pixel mess to solid textured triangles.

If you contrast with 2D upscaling, you get stepped edges on long lines when 2D data is upscaled and interpolated..

 

[orangpelupa]

BTW just found out via elanalistadebits that Psone classic are rendering at 1440p on

Interesting, I wonder why they chose that resolution. Obviously it was not due to performance issue as even my Xbox Series s can render to 4k just fine


Edit the video

 

[Deleted member 11852]

This conversation is getting kinda silly. Don't understand DSoup dragging his feet here. Check out this video with FIFA 98...

So to be clear, every image I've looked at here has some blur/fuzz between joining polygons. If the rendering is native 1080p/4K why aren't they all super sharp? They should be at 4K. Why do they all exhibit common telltale signs of post-process upscaling? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'd say many, if not not most PlayStation games have graphical issues that were introduced by the low output resolution and where targeting a higher resolution in an emulator improves things. But there does seem to be some point where things makes no difference. With regard to DuckStation, why does anything resembling a modern PC need a fast CPU to throw out a few thousand polygon at 4K? It's disproportionate. It's hard to tell from the source but it looks like that it's ding brute-force post-processing upscaling on the emulated frame buffer. I've dropped the team en mail asking for more details and will post any response.

If you contrast with 2D upscaling, you get stepped edges on long lines when 2D data is upscaled and interpolated..

There are a lot of options for interpolation, including algorithms that preserve and even enhance curves by using much larger sample and cross-sample areas and/or ML. This is more computationally expensive but DuckStation gets more computationally expensive the higher the emulated resolution. So.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Reynaldo]

So to be clear, every image I've looked at here has some blur/fuzz between joining polygons. If the rendering is native 1080p/4K why aren't they all super sharp? They should be at 4K. Why do they all exhibit common telltale signs of post-process upscaling? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'd say many, if not not most PlayStation games have graphical issues that were introduced by the low output resolution and where targeting a higher resolution in an emulator improves things. But there does seem to be some point where things makes no difference. With regard to DuckStation, why does anything resembling a modern PC need a fast CPU to throw out a few thousand polygon at 4K? It's disproportionate. It's hard to tell from the source but it looks like that it's ding brute-force post-processing upscaling on the emulated frame buffer. I've dropped the team en mail asking for more details and will post any response.



There are a lot of options for interpolation, including algorithms that preserve and even enhance curves by using much larger sample and cross-sample areas and/or ML. This is more computationally expensive but DuckStation gets more computationally expensive the higher the emulated resolution. So.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It’s not post processing, depending on the game in multiplies the internal resolution by your choosing. If a games renders at 226p of course it’s not going to give perfect 1 to 1 perfect pixel mapping on a 4K screen.

I’m running a i7 4790k and have no performance issues with higher res in games. You’re just being stubborn for no reason.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

It’s not post processing, depending on the game in multiplies the internal resolution by your choosing. If a games renders at 226p of course it’s not going to give perfect 1 to 1 perfect pixel mapping on a 4K screen.

If a game "renders at 226p" then it's not rendering internally at 1080p or 4k is it.
This is the point.

Let's try this another way. Have you ever played GTA III, Vice City or San Andreas (PS2 version) emulated on a PC and upscaled? What you get a higher evolution but slighty-soft PS2 game. If you play the actual PC versions, running at actual native resolutions, you get pin-sharp polygons and polygon edges. That is what I'm talking about.

 

[Reynaldo]

If a game "renders at 226p" then it's not rendering internally at 1080p or 4k is it.
This is the point.

The point is why PSone games on PSplus are not rendering in higher res. Not if they can map perfect pixels to 1080 or 4k. You seem to have misunderstood the whole conversation.